Marketing for Banks | Terry McDougall

Terry is an Executive and Career Coach and author of Winning the Game of Work: Career Happiness and Success on Your Own Terms. We go into business, the definition of happiness, goal setting, and much more!

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Transcript

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Welcome to the Josh Bolton show. Interesting and inspiring conversations. And now your host, Josh Bolton. Hey, everybody, today on the podcast, we're going to talk to Terry MacDougall about her journey with just through life. I believe it was she was in a C suite area one point. Yeah, I was leading marketing for for a financial services company. Which one? Bank of Montreal and Chicago. So they're us. Okay, number of businesses and their us operation? Ah, okay. So how, how does marketing work for banking? Well, it really depends on what area you work in. I, for most of my career worked in the business to business area. And in, in those cases, we are working very closely with sales. And I, I really talk about, you know, b2b marketing and banking being what I call chunky, meaning that each individual transaction is usually pretty big. And so you know, we, we would spend more money on our marketing, because the return on the investment was larger. So when I first started working at that company, I came in as the US Head of Marketing for the investment bank. And, you know, in investment banking, this is like banks that help companies do like mergers and acquisitions, or, you know, maybe initial public offerings, putting bonds out on the market, you know, raising capital. And so a lot of times, you know, they're really looking to, in some cases, you know, get hundreds of millions or even billions of dollars worth of investments. And so when the bank gets a cut it out, it's a lot. Yeah. And so, you know, we would do things like, we did a lot of events, okay, conferences, at resorts, because the decision maker for that kind of transaction or, you know, relationship is usually the C suite. So it's the CEO and the CFO, and it's difficult to get their attention, right, it's difficult to get their time because they're very busy people. So we would do things like you know, hold a two or three day conference set a really nice resort, like maybe we would go to a resort in Scottsdale, Arizona in the winter time. And, you know, have speakers from the industry come in, but also we would read in plenty of time for leisure activities, like golfing on their, you know, PGA Championship course, right? Of course, you gotta make time for that. Yeah, that kind of that kind of event tends to get people's attention, right? Because they're thinking like, oh, okay, like, I could go to Scottsdale in the middle of January, for a few days. And it's business. But it's also nice, right, I'll get a get to play a couple rounds of golf. And the bankers love that. Because they have the person's undivided attention when they're driving around the golf course on a golf cart with them. You know, so it's funny, I had never worked in investment bank marketing. Before I came to the company, I worked for another bank. And I'd worked in other areas of b2b. But I was actually a little bit surprised when I first came in about how much we spent on on marketing, right. But when I really looked at the big picture, and I said, Okay, well, how much is each one of these transactions worth to the bank, you know, to spend, you know, a few $1,000 on entertaining someone or, or putting an event on or something like that. It's it's very small, like miniscule percentage, based on what we got in return if we got new clients. Absolutely. Yeah, you're dealing with the pockets. They're deep. You can easily afford that. Yeah, yeah, definitely. And in some of the other things that we did, you know, certainly a lot of events because like, if you can get in front of the people, if you can, like, you know, directly influence or build the relationship that's very valuable. But we also, we advertised in the Wall Street Journal. Okay, we advertised and some other, you know, pretty well known business, magazines and that kind of thing. Now, this has been a few years ago, like, definitely I know, since I've left that they've shifted a lot more towards digital. But you know, I started working there in 2005. And digital wasn't where it is now. Yeah. Yeah, it's it's a huge game changer for a lot of industries, too. Yeah, for sure. So, let's talk about you the your transition from that life to an entrepreneur counselor. Yeah. executive and career coach. Okay, what I do, and I made the transition in 2017. With my last company, I was there for 12 years. And in the time that I was there, I had four different jobs. I would say in many ways I sort of like outgrew the opportunities that were available to me there, the company that I worked for is Canadian owned, and really the next level jobs were in Canada, and I really had no interest to move to Canada. And so anyway, the company was going through some changes, and I was in a position where I could leave and, you know, not have another job and just kind of figure out what I wanted to do next. And when I left, I actually it's funny because I, I did what I tell other people to do when I'm working with them from a career standpoint, which is really take a look at yourself and say, What am I good at, and what do I like to do, because typically, that's where you're going to find both success and happiness if you're doing something that you're good at, and that you're at the end that you enjoy doing. And in, in all the years that I was a leader in marketing, and actually, if I look back over my whole life, I have always really enjoyed helping people. And you know, as a leader, I spent a lot of time coaching and mentoring people that were on my teams. And I always found that to be a very good investment of my time. Because, you know, as a leader, you're only as good as the people that are on your team. And so, you know, if I could help make people on my team better and more effective, and more confident, and then it was only going to benefit me and not that I was doing it just you know, selfishly, but also help them out to it's a win win. Yeah, it's and people like it when somebody is investing time and helping them to grow. So anyway, I, I actually had hired career coaches a couple times in my own career where, you know, I kind of got to a place where I wanted to keep moving up, and I couldn't figure out what I needed to do differently. And it's really helpful sometimes to have somebody who, in some ways holds the mirror up to you and kind of points out like areas where maybe you have blind spots. And and also provides a safe place to help you. You know, kind of test and learn like, what can I do differently, or, you know, actually, the the first time that I hired a career coach, I had interviewed for a job at the previous company that I worked for my boss left, and when he left, I interviewed for his job. And I made it through the first round of interviews. Fine. But I guess because I already worked for the company, I didn't really think that I had to prepare that. Well for the interview. I just thought Oh, everybody, yes, they know me, it's okay. But it was a big company. So I think that I assumed people knew me better than they really did. But the second interview was a panel interview, and I just got really nervous in the interview. Because, you know, I'm sitting in front of like, three people, and they're all like, shooting questions at me. And I didn't do well. And so I got eliminated from the process, which that hurt, that hurt a lot, because I had been my boss's kind of right hand person. And in the months after he left, before they started interviewing for his role, I actually sort of stepped up and informally been the, you know, kind of de facto leader of the department. And, you know, to have that pulled away from me really kind of hurt. But I decided to hire a career coach to help me, you know, become more confident in my interviewing style. And also, you know, she helped me realize that I had not really mentally promoted myself to, you know, kind of show up at that leader level, you know, because there is a difference in how people show up when they're sort of like, you know, you know, maybe, uh, I think I had one or two people that reported to me at the time, but, you know, he had a whole team of people that reported to him, and you do have to sort of mentally promote yourself to that next level. So she helped me do that. The funny thing about this whole story is that they went through the whole interview process, and they offered the job to somebody, and that person turned it down. And that the company for whatever reason, I guess, they didn't have like a second candidate that they thought was a good fit. So they started the process all over again. And so because I had, you know, had these months of, you know, coaching, I actually applied again, and the second time through, I made it to the finals, I made it through several rounds of interviews, and it was me and a guy that worked for another bank, and he was an external candidate. And, you know, I remember going into the final interview is like in the CEOs office, and you Sitting at this, this was also a panel interview, by the way, it was like, like to like his chief operating officer, and I can't remember who the other person was, but, you know, very senior level people. And I felt very confident. Unfortunately, I did not get the offer, I think that they were really interested in like having new blood come in. So they offered it to the external candidate, which, you know, you can imagine that that probably didn't feel very good to, you know, be a two time loser. But it has a happy ending, because the day that they told me that the other guy accepted the offer, I went to lunch, and I came back and I had a voicemail from a recruiter on my phone line that was, you know, was reaching out to me about a job that they thought I'd be a good fit for. And by the time I left the company, about four months later, I had two job offers, which one of one of those jobs I took, and I was interviewing for a third position. So you know, all that investment in myself paid off. And quite frankly, the job that I got was better than the job at my old company that I had been rejected for. I made you know, I ended up doubling my salary in the first year. Oh, wow. Yeah, it was, it was well worth the investment from even though it was it was a little scary roll. It was painful and embarrassing, right, you know, to have that failure. But on the other hand, sometimes, that's what you need to have a wake up call that you need to change some things. Absolutely. So from the new offer, is it Are you there? Are you now full on on your own? I'm full on on my own? Yeah, that that job was the job that moved me I was in North Carolina before. And they the company that I ended up coming to work for is in Chicago, or the US, you know, it's a Canadian company, but their us headquarters is in Chicago. And so I they moved me out here and it was, you know, it's a it was a pretty big move, because we went from living in a you know, kind of a smaller city 150,000 people in North Carolina to, you know, coming to Chicago, where, you know, it's it's millions of people in this whole metropolitan area, we moved into a suburb that's about 20 miles outside of Chicago. And it's a lot more expensive. You know, there was a lot of a lot of unknowns, but you know, 15 years ago, and it's, it really was a good decision on many fronts. I've got three kids and my kids really enjoyed living in a in a big metropolitan area, and we live close to Lake Michigan. So it's, yeah, it's nice. It really is nice. So for the Chicago, was it? The very fast paced kind of like, for me, I'm in California in LA, is it fast paced? Just loud, nonstop? Yeah. I mean, the, the city is, you know, it's just all it's huge, you know, huge skyscrapers everywhere, you know, the cities right on the banks of Lake Michigan. There's the Chicago River that goes from Lake Michigan, like right through the middle of the city. It's a really beautiful city, actually. But yeah, it's quite fast paced, and, you know, lots of huge companies, Boeing is here. You know, lots of Wrigley chewing gum. crafts, a lot of the there's a lot of pharmaceutical companies that are in the Chicago area, McDonald's, you know, so it's, um, it's definitely a big city. A lot of there's a lot of financial services, too. I mean, there's when I first moved here, there were two big trading exchanges here. I think that they've merged since then. But yeah, it's a big financial services area to which you know, for me, it was good because I work for you. Yeah, I think for Chicago, it's definitely the Chicago Board of options or something. Is Chicago. Yeah. Chicago Board of exchange. Yeah, cb cb o II, which, that was like, two blocks from my company's headquarters. Like that whole area is just all banks. It's it's sort of like Chicago's Wall Street and away. Yeah. So with your coach and then teaching you and you got your new job? How are you going to pass on the torch anything? What's your method for your clients in the future? Well, I mean, my, my approach, or I guess, I would say my mission is to help people expand the overlap between their professional success and their personal happiness. I have always been a very driven person and, you know, always was like trying to move up and trying to learn more, and I quit. My job, I was 29 and went back to business school full time for a year and a half to get an MBA. And mainly I did that because I had been working, and I've been trying to move up and I was feeling like I wasn't getting considered for some of the jobs that I really wanted in the marketing arena. So I thought, Okay, well, now I'm going to go back and get an MBA. And that definitely helped me It helped me put put me on sort of a different trajectory. But I also think that a lot of times, I wasn't kind of taking into consideration about, like, my own happiness, where I was like, so driven, that I would like, kind of stress myself out. And, you know, so as a coach, what I help people to do is, like, have more of that balance. And sometimes I, well, actually, I'll take a step back and just tell you, who I typically work with, I work with people really in three different scenarios. One is that, you know, they've got a job, and they are successful, but they're not satisfied, for some reason, like, they may be paying a very high price for their success, meaning that they're, like, stressed out, they're feeling burnout, they're frustrated, you know, maybe they're even having health problems. And I will help them kind of look at their situation and figure out like, what, what do they need to do to have success without so much stress. And a lot of times, it's like developing skill sets, you know, maybe building processes learning to put boundaries in place, learning to delegate, you know, that's one of the things I see, a lot of times when people have been promoted, that they don't like, much like what I was saying earlier, they don't mentally promote themselves to that next level. So, you know, they'll become a leader, but they still keep trying to do their old job plus be a leader. And that's stressful. So, you know, helping them make that mindset shift is important. Another group of people that I work with is people that are in job search. Very often, you know, people are, you know, maybe they've worked at a company for a long time, and they've gotten laid off. And they don't really know how to look for a job in today's world. You know, because if somebody has worked at a company for 20 or 30 years, probably when they applied, they, you know, we're sending the resume and in the mail, you know, and that's, there's so many, like little tips and tricks that people don't know about, how do you present yourself? And, you know, how do you get through the applicant tracking systems, right? Because there's no, there's really no barrier to entry. And a lot of times, you know, companies will get hundreds of resumes for one job. And so how do you differentiate yourself in that, you know, pool of applicants or, you know, better yet, how do you avoid that as the way that you apply for the job? You know, how do you use networking to sort of get in the back door, and, you know, get to the end of the line, these are things that I will work with people on, and I also will work with them on, you know, how to network, how to, you know, present themselves in the most positive light when they're interviewing. You know, it's, I don't think it's any big secret that many people get very nervous about interviewing, and even though they're very capable, and they might be a great applicant for the position. Because they're not good interviewers, they get eliminated, right? And so, you know, I'll work with them on like, Okay, well, let's, let's, you know, really rehearse how you're going to present yourself. So you don't feel nervous that you really let your natural personality and your, you know, positive energy flow in the interview. So people are, you know, feel confident that you can do the job. And then the last group of people that I work with are, are people that are, you know, maybe have gotten to a certain point in their career, and they're not sure what they want to do next. They might have outgrown their position, maybe they just don't, maybe they never really liked what they did. Like, I worked with people who, you know, maybe their dad said, like, hey, study accountant, accounting in college, because you can make a good living doing that, right. And then they're like, you know, they're a 35 year old accountant, and they're like, I don't like accounting. You know, so, a lot of times people get on paths in their career, and they don't like what they're doing. And so I'll work with them to figure out like, okay, what's a better fit for you? And how do we make that transition from, you know, this path to pivoting to, you know, start on a different path without having to backtrack, you know, go back and start at the beginning. Yeah. So, cut all the fluff go right. For the, the head of it. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And a lot of times, you know, there are a lot of transferable skills, right. It's, I think that my my background in marketing helps me a lot. Or it helps me help my clients a lot to think like, how do we package you so that you're seeing in the best possible light that people see the best fits of your experience. And can imagine, like where you'd fit in organization. Yeah, and there's some basic skills that people don't even realize they're super valuable, but they don't know how to phrase it, they definitely need someone like you to be like, okay, it's on its way you got to do. You know, one of the things that that I've noticed about myself and other people is that a lot of times, our superpowers are things that we totally take for granted. And we'll just say like, oh, what everybody can do that, like everybody is, you know, able to talk to anybody, like, my husband is like, Mr. Friendly, like, everybody likes him. You know, people feel close to him really quickly, he's able to build rapport quickly. And, you know, I think that he might just be like, Oh, well, everybody can do that. And that's absolutely not true. And that's, that's a blind spot that a lot of people have that whatever they're good at. They just think like, oh, anybody can do that, because it comes easily to them. But I always say like, whatever comes most easily to you is probably your superpower. I absolutely agree with that. Recently, I've noticed that I work at a local grocery store. And I've always thought it was weird. I could communicate and tell everyone I'm thinking. And then they're like, oh, no worries. I'm just like, well, you're so good at talking to like the boss, like you. And what are you talking about? Anything? Yeah, yeah, some people, you know, some people are intimidated. And that way and other people, you know, they just are very natural and can just relate on a very basic human way, which, you know, that's a talent. Yeah, and it's just one of those. If you have a you don't know what to say, it's like, I just, I'm really good at talking to people. Yeah. Well, you know, that's, really, that's what I do for people is like, I hold up the mirror to them. And I have this like, funny little thing that I always say to people, which is, you can't read the label from inside the bottle, right? Like, we are all walking around just being ourselves, we don't see that there's anything special about us. I mean, some people do, obviously, there's some people that have big egos. But most people that I work with, it's they have the opposite problem. Like they're very humble. And they're like, Oh, I'm just, I'm just being me. And I hold the mirror up to them to be like, no look like you have a real talent for this or that. And let's really play that up, you know, it can feel uncomfortable to be an advocate for ourselves. But when you're interviewing for jobs, or if you're, you know, looking to be promoted in your company, it's critical that you understand what your strengths then and you know, how you add value for the company, and that you talk that up? Because nobody else is going to do it? No, you know, a lot of people depend on their boss to be their advocate. And you know, your boss is thinking about themselves. A lot of projects going crazy, too. Yeah. And, and a lot of times, they don't even, they don't even know what like your aspiration is, right? Like, they don't know that you might be interested in this or that opportunity within the company. So it's really important to, you know, raise your hand if you're interested in something and be prepared to talk about why you would be a good fit. Absolutely. Yeah. It's one of those things I've noticed, communication is not as effective as it used to be. I guess I could put it that way. It's where, from what I've gathered when I was younger, everyone would talk. But now it's, everyone's on their phones. So why do they need to talk to me? Yeah, yeah, I think you're right. I mean, I, I am from a definitely different generation. You know, my kids are, I guess what you call like digital natives, because, you know, I was like playing computer games with them. When they were like toddlers, you know, and then, you know, they've grown up with my husband, and I haven't phones and iPads and all that kind of stuff. But when I was young, and people, my generation were young, like, we didn't have a lot of information right at our fingertips like we do with the internet. Right? Right. And so if you wanted to learn something, you had to have relationships with people that were older than you. Right? Like if you were if you want to learn something at work, you had to like ingratiate yourself to someone or your boss or somebody that would be willing to teach you nowadays, you know, you can pretty much Google and find a YouTube on anything. And you know, so you don't need to learn those social skills to ingratiate yourself self to someone that will teach you. Right and I and I do think in many cases, you know, some people haven't developed their communications skills to the level that it would benefit them. Yeah. It's just it seems like an overarching trend. So as far as online and everything online, what are your, your tips and tricks for your clients? You mean like from marketing standpoint or Marketing and the coaching to Well, actually I, I have just recently like, signed on to this like coaching platform. That is, I'm really excited about it because it's like pretty all encompassing in terms of how I'm going to run my business, like, I'm going to be able to, like have client portals for my, for my clients so that we can sort of communicate in a private area, like if they have, you know, paperwork or documents, like their resume or something that they want to share with me, they can just like put it on the portal. And we can communicate that way, which is really nice. So it's not going to be like all email. People can also like book on my calendar and pay through it. So you know, as an as a solopreneur, it's very important for me to be able to leverage technology, so that I get the most out of my time. And so I'm very excited about that. I was actually talking with a representative from the company yesterday, and he was like, showing me how I can automate a lot of things to like, for example, if one of my clients hasn't, you know, booked in a while that I can just say, Okay, if they have I haven't heard from them in three weeks that I can just like trigger an email that will go out to them to be like, hey, just checking in, like, what's up? Do you want to? Do you want to book something, so I'm super excited about that. I have always been very active on LinkedIn, you know, because I've been, you know, in the business world for a long time. And, you know, somewhere along the line, I started to really realize how important networking is. And so, I've always been, well, since 2007, I've been really active on LinkedIn. And since I started my own business, I I try to post pretty much every day. And I am constantly growing my network as well. And, you know, for somebody who does business with business people, that's the perfect place for me to be, you know, because people are out on LinkedIn. They're, they're typically engaged because they're concerned about their careers or growing their businesses. And that's what I help people do. I'm just trying to think I actually, I don't know, if I mentioned this to you, when, when we first were talking about any comment on your podcast that I actually just launched a podcast a couple of weeks ago, too. And it's, it's called marketing Mambo. And it's focused on talking to people in the in the marketing profession. Oh, yeah. And I mean, because I was a marketer for so long. I just and I actually do, I don't coach only marketers, but I do you have a lot of clients who work in marketing and advertising. And so I just, and then plus, I just love. I love talking about marketing. And I actually was talking with one of my clients not too long ago, and she and I were talking about this, this particular trend around, like marketing and technology. Just we were just discussing it, and we both were kind of like, oh, wow, this would make a really interesting podcast. And so that got me thinking she's actually going to be on with me next week. And we're we're gonna record, you know, kind of like a follow up to that discussion as a podcast. Awesome. Yeah. So, I mean, I'm trying to, I'm trying to use all of the channels as much as possible to, you know, put my message out into the, into the world. Yeah, one point has speaking of podcasting in your skills, I was needing to get my skills of selling up and I just like, Oh, I know, I'm working long nights. I was downloaded podcasts on sales. And splitting the same one, there was a marketing I'm like, Alright, like, I might as well look at it. Yeah. Like, that's how I got this idea. I'm like, I'm where I'm at. I'm a little stuck. So I'm like, hey, if I do this and get my name known, eventually, like, I can network out from here. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. It's amazing. Like how empowered we are nowadays. I mean, I I've been doing my my coaching since 2017. And it's just, it's so cool how we're so empowered by technology, you know, like that you and I can even be, you know, sitting here looking at each other on zoom, and, you know, how many tools are available to just help you do things that in the past, you would have needed an office, you would need an assistant and, you know, to get started, it probably would have been too expensive, you know, but now it's like as just one person, you can just sort of go out and set up your own website and, you know, buy some or subscribe to some tools that aren't super expensive and get yourself set up. Yeah, like under 500 bucks. You can build your own thing like$100 setup or my $100 for your website. And that's it. Yeah, or something and you're good to go. Yeah, definitely. Definitely. It's It's really cool. So, when you I was reading some of your articles and your website, you say you teach people to find specifically their happiness within and success? How so how do you defeat the mantra of if you want to be successful, you have to put in long hours suffer to get a good paycheck, then when you retire, you can be happy kind of thing. Yeah, you know, like, not everybody makes it to retirement. So like, that's, that seems like that's a, you know, that's a risky bet to be like, Okay, I'm gonna be miserable for the next 65 years. And then, and then I'll be happy at that point, like, the thing is that if you live your life, doing something that you don't enjoy, it changes you, right? Like, you can't just like preserve who you are, and go through a miserable situation. And then after decades of that be the same person that you were that, you know, to start with. I think that that's a that's a misconception that people have that you can't like work, can't be satisfying. And work can't align with things that you love to do. I actually think that if you start by saying, you know, going back to the questions that I I said, I asked myself earlier, like, what are you good at? And what do you like to do? If you get clear on that, and then you start looking out in the world to see like, Where can I connect, you know, where, where are my skills valued. You know, it might be that you start down a path where you're going to make less money than what you're capable of making, but you'll probably be happier. And, you know, my example, earlier, actually, I'll use an example from somebody that I worked with that, and I kind of alluded to this earlier, that when he was in college, he went to a good business school, you know, for undergrad, and he didn't know what he wanted to major in. And his dad was like, Well, why don't you just, um, you know, major in accounting, because like, you can always get a job in accounting. Yeah. And so he did, he's a smart guy, he did well in accounting, and he got out and he got a job with a big four accounting firm, and he, you know, moved up in the organization, but he really didn't like it. He was there for like, you know, 10 or 11 years. And he kind of got, I mean, this is what happens in a lot of these huge firms. I mean, they have hundreds of 1000s of employees, and like, when you start, whatever, you know, kind of business or accounting they're doing in that office, if you're there at that time, that's what they're going to put you in, they're not saying like, oh, what kind of accounting Do you want to do, they're just like, this is the work that we have, we're gonna put you in this. And so he was doing the certain kind of accounting that he did not really like. And, and the funny thing about it was that he had this sort of creative streak. On the side, like, he actually had a side hustle business where he and a friend of his started this game of the Month Club, where they were going out and finding like, unusual games, and they were marketing and, and he was like, I just like, This job is soul killing, like, I want to do something different. And, you know, I kind of look at that. And I'm like, okay, who's making a lot of money? You know, he was, you know, quote, unquote, successful, he had a good title work for a great company. But he wasn't happy. Right? So it's successful, but not satisfied. He actually ended up where he was applying for jobs at startups and stuff, I think he was thinking like, Oh, that's gonna be, you know, that'll be like, so much more exciting. And, but the thing is that startups aren't going to take somebody seriously from a big four accounting firm, they're going to be like, he's not gonna be happy here, because it's so crazy and long hours. And, you know, it's such a huge leap to go from, like this giant, you know, probably half a million people business to like, maybe a business where there's five people, right? That's just too too big of a leap. And I said, Why don't you just start networking, like I encouraged him to network to like, explore things that might be a good fit. And, I mean, this kind of thing happens every once in a while. I can't, I can never guarantee it for anybody. But I'm always amazed, like, once people go out and start networking, the things that can happen, he was introduced to a partner in a regional accounting firm that was actually really close to his house, and his father in law knew the guy, just a coffee, they just got together for coffee, you know, he was just, you know, explaining to him what he did. And you know, the fact that he was exploring what he wanted to do next in his career. And the partner looked at him and he was like, you know, at our company, we have a lot of partners in their 50s. And we have a lot of like Junior accountants that are like just out of college. We don't have a lot of people that are in their 30s like you are and the area of accounting that you work in, we actually don't have that at our firm. We've been thinking about getting it started. And so this coffee turned into a job offer. And my client took the job offer, he used to have to go all the way into the city in Chicago for his old job. This job is 10 minutes from his house, even though it was still an accounting, it like gave him a lot more freedom, like he was, you know, expected to sort of like mentor, the younger accountants, he was going to start up this this whole practice, they were going to let him get involved in like business development and all like, so his world just expanded. And, you know, I mean, I think that if he was like, starting his life all over again, I mean, maybe he would have pursued like, product management or, or something like that. But he found a happy middle ground where, you know, he still was going to make good money as an accountant, but he wasn't gonna be pigeon holed in this giant corporation. You know, he was gonna, you know, be in a place where he could have more influence and a 10 minute commute. commute alone is worth it. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly. And, you know, I mean, sometimes we're on a certain path, and we don't want to like go all the way back to the beginning, right, we went, we still want to leverage the experience that we have, but we want to, like balance it with things that make us happier. And in his case, it did. And I was like, I couldn't have been more thrilled for him. Because, you know, when I start working with somebody, I kind of hold space. And I'm a very optimistic person, I really believe that if people get clear on what their goal is that we can find a way to get them there. But sometimes it happens a lot more quickly than you even can imagine that it will. Because there are a lot of opportunities around us. But a lot of times we don't we don't have the conversations with people to uncover those opportunities. Right? Yeah, like your client. It's just it was an opportunity right there. All he had to do was ask kind of thing. Yeah. And it's funny. I mean, he didn't expect that it was not an interview, but it kind of turned into one because he just shared, you know, who he was and what his background was. And the guy was like, wow, you know, like, we need you. It's a nice feeling. It is, the power of coffee is very important. Very true. Very true. So I didn't say, Oh, wait, I just lost it. For you for specific skills for like, marketing. Dude, would you also say like, time management, and planning would be important, too. Yeah, it's critical. I mean, marketing is all about project management, you know, because, you know, the process in marketing, like, I'll just talk to you about, like, what, what I did throughout my whole career was, you know, as a marketer, I would have basically internal clients within the company, you know, and usually they were somebody that was heading up a business, or they were the head of sales for a business. And, you know, I've worked with them to understand like, Okay, what issues are you seeing, right? Do you need to, you know, do we need to run some lead generation campaigns? Do we need to increase our awareness among a certain audience? Once we get clarity about what the goal is, and then I would come up with a plan, like, Okay, well, we're gonna, you know, have an event to invite our clients to, or we're going to run an ad campaign, or we're going to do direct mail, whatever it is, but you know, we had to be focused on whatever, achieving that goal. And then we would, you know, kind of decide, okay, well, when do we want to have this thing completed, you pick a date? And then you kind of backtrack from there to say, Okay, well, what are all the things that we need to do in order to make this happen by that particular date? And, you know, after doing it for so many years, it almost just, it comes very automatically, you know, because you've done so long, for decades. But that's, that's critical, somebody who's not good at keeping track of details, who's not good at continuing to push projects forward, is not going to do well. Marketing. Right? Yeah, especially the gold part, if they could be detail oriented, want detail oriented all they want. But if you can't set a goal and actually finish it in time, it's never gonna work out. Right? Yeah, exactly. And you won't, you won't keep your job, you know, because those, those people that you're working with, are typically the people that are responsible for revenue generation, and marketing's job is to support revenue generation. And if you're not fulfilling on your part of that, you're not going to last. No. So it's it's really critical to, you know, to be very aligned with the people that are bringing the money into the company and make sure that you're really supporting them. Yeah, you're essentially setting up the stage for sales to come and finish the job, right. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. You know, a lot of times we are, you know, we're creating that awareness and the interest and the desire for whatever solutions that we have. And then, you know, kind of setting it up for for sales, you know, to close the deals. So, you were mentioning, you're in the Michigan area now. No, I, in the I live in a suburb of Chicago, but I am on though. I'm about a mile from Lake Michigan. Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah, I'm on the I'm on the west side of Lake Michigan, which is Illinois, and and Wisconsin is north of us. But on the east side is Michigan. Okay. Sorry. scatterbrain. For your goals in your setting, for marketing, that's very important. But how do you incorporate marketing and goals to your clients? Oh, for my clients, yeah, I've got basically a five step process that I go through with my clients, when I'm working with them from a coaching standpoint, and the very first thing that we do is get clarity on what their goals are, like, coaching is not going to work, if we're not clear about where we're going to, I mean, in a lot of ways, it's sort of like, analogous to going on a trip, right? Like you can get, you can jump in your car and get on the road, and you can start driving, but if you don't know where you're going, it's gonna be kind of pointless. Yeah. And so that's really the first thing that I help people do is just get clear on what their goal is. And, you know, sometimes I really think that deep down inside, everybody knows what they want. But I think a lot of times, it's hard for people to really say out loud what they want, because there's a lot of fear involved with it, you know, especially like, if you want to, like change careers, or you want to move up in your job, there's like this fear, like, oh, maybe I'm not gonna get it, or maybe I'm not good enough, or I don't know what I need to do to get this. And, you know, a lot of times when I start working with people, they'll say, Well, what is it that you want, and they'll say, I really want to get a promotion. But I don't think I'm going to be able to because I don't have this and this and this. And I'm like, these are two separate things, right? Like, let's get super clear on what it is that you want. And like, just put that aside, okay, what you want, let's get clear on it. Separately, what's it going to take to get there? Right. But if people mix those things up, and if they, if they don't feel committed to the thing that they want, they're not going to get it because they actually will sabotage themselves. They'll be like, Oh, I'm not going to apply for that job. Because I'm afraid I won't get it. You know what I mean, look at me, and the story I told earlier. You know, yeah, it was embarrassing to not get the same job twice. Yeah, I felt humiliated, I will just say it right out loud that I felt humiliated. But I will also say that it was the best thing that ever happened to me in my career, because it, that pain of humiliation of like, bombing, in an interview with people that were basically my peers, was very embarrassing. So that drove me to go and develop this weakness that I had, which was, you know, not presenting myself well, and not being confident in the interview process. And, because I, I did that, when the next opportunities came along, I was prepared for it. You know, I, I'm a smart person, and I felt like I was capable of doing the jobs, it's just that I wasn't very good at presenting myself. You know, and, you know, I, a lot of times people ask me things like, you know, tell me about the biggest failure in your, in your life or whatever. And I actually don't, I don't really believe that failure is a thing. Because failure only happens when you stop trying. You know, failure is like, when you just when you drop out, and you just say, I'm not going to try anymore, you're actually going to feet kind of thing. Yeah, exactly. And otherwise, you know, it's just a temporary setback that is teaching you something. And, you know, if I look back over my whole life, I don't really feel like I have any failures. And I don't and I'm not saying that. I mean, I've had a lot of things that have happened that were painful and embarrassing, and where things didn't turn out the way that I wanted them to in that moment. But I learned from it and I you know, got up and brush myself off and kept going and you know, it's just learn it's Yeah, yeah. Would you say majority of what's holding people back is just fear but also their mind like they're subconsciously like you said self sabotaging. They're not thinking if I actually think I'm successful, then I will be successful because we're not taught that. That's one of those I've recently picked up on that and like, if you want to be successful, you have to assume you're already successful. Now how do you get there kind of thing? Yeah, it Exactly. I mean, it's you know, you've probably heard that saying perception is reality. And it is because we actually, I think this is kind of interesting that the kind of coaching that I was trained in, we were taught that there's seven different levels of energy. And the lowest two levels of energy are avoidance, and like, judgment or fighting defensiveness, that kind of thing. It's basically the fight or flight response, right. And these are, I mean, these are levels of energy that are important, because it allows us to survive, but way too many of us will just spend our whole life in the fight or flight mode. And there are five other levels of energy that go all the way up to complete enlightenment. Above that, and so a lot of times, we will, like, you know, something happens in like, a void, in engaging a will, or will get defensive or fight or be judgmental about a situation, when there's a lot of other choices of how we could respond like we could, you know, we could just tolerate it, or we could care for someone, or we could see the opportunity, or we could kind of, you know, become united with other people around something, or we could just be like, it is what it is, right? Like, I'm not even going to have any judgment about this, I'm just going to observe it, right, I'm just gonna be like, whatever. And there's a lot of power in those higher levels of energy. But so few of us, like, let go of the fight or flight response long enough to rise to those higher levels. And there's a lot that is possible when you get out of, you know, because I always think of like the fight or flight like, first of all, it's natural, if you're under, you know, siege, you know, if there's something that's truly dangerous, it's natural to want to avoid it, or if we're pressed to fight it, right. But a lot of times, we'll just out of habit, avoid or fight things, that we'd be better off, like accepting or engaging with, you know, and a lot of times, like if we show up in a defensive way, and then other people show up in a defensive way, right, and it just, it causes this kind of snowball effect. And we'll be like, they're always so mean to me. And it's like, maybe they're mean to you, because you never say hello to them, because you don't like them. Right. And sometimes if we if we change our behavior, all of a sudden people change their behavior, because the environments different. And the reality is, we have a lot more control over what goes on in our lives, then. Then we may realize, and I guess another point that I want to make is that it's not really what other people say or do to us, that that hurts us. It's what we think about what people say or do to us. You know, for example, you know, if, okay, here, here's an example, if you're driving down the highway, and somebody veers into your lane and cuts you off, I mean, if you think like, Oh, what a jerk That guy is, he was trying to hurt me like, right, that's when you, you know, you're like beeping the horn, and like, speeding up and giving them the finger, you know, because you feel defensive, you're like, they were trying to hurt me, right? But if you changed your thought, and you said they just veer into my lane, but like, oh, maybe they're on the way to the hospital, and you know, they have an injured person in the car, we're probably going to be more empathetic, right? We're going to be more patient with that. And we can just, we don't have to hold on to those things. You know, we don't have to like make a judgment about it at all. Somebody like veers into your lane, and of course going to be surprised or shocked for a second. But then you're maybe you just realized, well, I'm safe. Like, who cares, I'm not gonna even waste the energy to get angry about it, I'm just gonna be like, okay, whatever. And if you if you do more and more of that, you'll, what you'll see is that you have more energy, to focus on the things that you want to achieve, rather than letting it like drain out, because you're worrying or you're being defensive or, you know, being judgmental or whatever. So, anyway, it's just like the fear in your mind, and you think it's 1000 times worse, but it's only it's like, it was only the three times worse than I actually thought it was gonna be. It's like, wow, I made it worse for myself thinking about it. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly. And, and, you know, it's, it's kind of amazing when you start to realize how much control you have over your, you know, over your life, and that, you know, somebody can be mean to you or call you names or make judgments about you. But if you're like, whatever, I don't care because I like myself. How can they hurt you? How can I hurt you, if If you're like, I don't really care what you think. Yeah. Yeah, that's the power for yourself. Yeah, exactly, exactly. So I really try to encourage my clients to, you know, start to be really supportive of themselves. And, you know, I've had clients that would be like, Oh, I, you know, I feel like I should do this, but I'm afraid that people aren't going to like me, or they're going to think on me. And I'm like, you know what, like, let's just be supportive of yourself and say, like, you know, you're a good business person, and who cares what they think, right? Like, that's their problem, whatever, they think that's right. If we can stand by ourselves and say, Hey, I'm doing the best I can, you know, and I'm not perfect. And nobody is, you know, it's, it's, it's a good way to preserve your energy so that you can focus it on more productive activities than, you know, self self judgment or, you know, shaming ourselves or whatever, which, you know, many of us kind of learned learned those habits young, but you can unlearn them, too. Yes, yes, you can. Um, speaking of mindset and negativity. So, do you encourage your clients to also like, meditate and work out in changing their diet? Or is it more more mindset, I do encourage my, my clients to do things that they enjoy doing. Okay, now, if they find that they're spending a lot of time worrying, or whatever, I will encourage them to meditate. And I will encourage them to, I have my, my headphones aren't getting low. I just heard a little sound. Yeah, but if if they are, I can grab my, my wired ones, okay. Um, but, you know, I just encourage them to get in touch with the things that they enjoy, and that they get energy out of, and I will tell people that, you know, if they're doing something and they get, you know, if they get butterflies or an excited feeling to take note of that, and to try to do more of that kind of thing. And I guess the flip side of that was if they get that sinking feeling, or they get a knot in their stomach when they're doing something try to do less of that. Yeah, just because focusing on the perception the reality that you're actually in, be like, Oh, your emotions, like, Oh, my boss talking to me about my review. I don't like that feeling. How can I better do this or? Yeah, I I do a lot. I when I paint, I'm just childish Lee joyful? I got to gotta remember that kind of thing. Yeah, yeah, exactly. I mean, I think that there's a lot of wisdom in our, in our bodies and in our intuition, but a lot of us and I mean, I'm counting myself in this for sure, is that a lot of times we just like, let our mind run everything. And I think taking a step back and noticing the the feelings that we get in our body, or, you know, if there is like a little voice that's telling you, I think that you should do this, like sometimes it's important to listen to that. And say like, Okay, my mind's biting me, but yet, you know, my gut is telling me I should do this. And, you know, I found that often, you know, my gut is is Right, right. I mean, it's, you know, our mind is like, sort of one dimensional. I feel like our bodies have a lot more wisdom that we then we often pay attention to. Yeah, yeah, there's there's so much more to the body that we still haven't figured out. kind of thing, like the energy to the just intuition alone. kind of thing. Yeah, yeah, definitely. I ended it with my phone. Yeah. Do you mind if I kind of do a little? I guess you're gonna edit. Right? Yeah. Can I do a little pitch for for my stuff? Absolutely. Okay. Okay. Well, if anybody would like to get in touch with me about coaching or Explorer, I've got lots of blog articles and so forth on my website at Terry B. McDougall comm My book is winning the game of work, career happiness and success on your own terms, and that's available on Amazon and Barnes and noble.com. And my new podcast is called marketing Mambo. And you can find that at marketing Mambo dotnet awesome anything else any socials you want to send them to? I probably my biggest social channel is LinkedIn and you can find me there. My handle is Terry B. McDougal. Okay. Awesome. Thank you Terry, for coming on. Thank you so much for having me. It was really fun talking to you. It was alright guys, that's the end of the show. Thank you for listening, a push for attention. I want you guys to also share on Twitter, the your experience any questions, comments or concerns? Nothing is too crazy. I also have a link on my website to a speak pipe you Personally send me a message. And I will probably reply back to you. So don't forget to tag me on Twitter JRBOL t o n underdash. Again SJ our Bolton underdash martra to post more on Instagram and Tiktok same thing Jr. Bolton underdash. So, other than that, guys, thank you and look forward to the next podcast in the future. Bye