Marketing CEO | Steve Bookbinder

   Steve is a New Yorker, husband, father, business owner, author, swimmer, and host of my own podcast as well as a client’s podcast. 
   I have spent my life reinventing myself.  When I first became a sales trainer, I was really an actor playing the part of a motivational speaker and trainer.  Over time, I began to practice what I preach and actually became the person I told people I was on stage.  More than 50 people found my story so interesting that they became trainers, coaches, and motivational speakers after meeting me.  After a lifetime of struggling with the question “what will I do when I grow up” I’ve finally decided to not grow up. 

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Transcript

Unknown: 0:01

Hi. Hey, how you doing? Good. How are you doing pretty good. So, are we going live into a podcast? Yeah, I'm just recording the audio. Okay, so the video doesn't matter. No, it doesn't. Do you wanna say do you want to turn mine off? No, but it doesn't matter to me. Um, but do you want me to use a better microphone? If you have one? Yes, I do. Okay, so hold on. My very interviewing you or your assistant to me. Got it? As much better. Yeah, right. Which microphone you using? Ah, don't tell me. I don't know. I forget the brand. I was given this checklist of like, buy this. You know, here's 10 things you need to buy. So this was part of that list, but I can't remember the brand of the microphone. But I could show it to you. I'll say Could you show me? Ah, okay, I know exactly which one you're using. It's Audio Technica. Okay. Yeah. So I have a little soundboard here and stuff. So just for this emergency. Nice. Yeah, I need to get a soundboard eventually. In fact, to really give this the the right. Feel. It should just do this. There we go. There we go. Yeah, see? Now I got actual, yeah. Oh, you got that? Sure. That's a good mic over there. Right. How is that setup cost you? It's a virtual background. It just looks like Oh, man. That's a good one. So um, let's get right into it. Steve, tell me about yourself. Hi, thanks for having me on. I'm, I'm a CEO of a sales training company. And I try to be I'm a writer. And and I'm a swimmer. Ooh, that's the swimming right there that would give me every time. So what do you what do you specifically target for your sales? I work with companies who are B to B business to business, right? salespeople, but in within that there are all kinds. So there are people that sell to different sized companies from multinational to local companies. There are companies that sell direct to their customer or indirect through agents or brokers or distributors of some kind, and that presents its own sales challenges. There are hunters that go after new business and farmers that maintain the existing business. And now they have things called Customer Success people and SDRs. You no one ever heard it out? Yeah. So so the the, there's nobody that has the job title salesperson anymore. And some people are as far afield as business development. And sometimes that's more salesy than other times. And so all of these are different kinds of sales roles. And that doesn't even include management. So but I work with all of those companies, across many industries, but a specialty in media, and media interesting. Okay, so how would that work? Like, for a lay man who doesn't know sales for media, how would it work? So in the old days, and you could argue that the old days were all the days before March or 2020. But certainly, in the very old days, if you simply sold something as easy as TV, or radio, or newspaper, you when you met with a potential advertiser or an agency, you just say, I have the newspaper, and maybe you have to go into some detail about it. But for the most part, the buyer was very familiar with how TV worked, or the newspaper worked, or how the radio work and how your station worked. And they could find third party rating numbers that indicate the audience so there wasn't so much explaining. Now, in today's world, everybody that sells any kind of media probably sells every kind of media. So if you sell radio or TV or any kind of not digital offering, all of a sudden you also have to have a digital offering. And now a whole collection of digital offerings, things like reputation management and SEO and SEM and mobile landing page development. Some kind of targeting parameter. So they all so the first thing that they need to know is what are those things even mean, they've never sold those things before. Also, when digital first came out, it was like the attitude of non digital sales people were like, That won't work. And then of course, you know, it became the dominant form. So you had to now learn to argue the different argument, you can't say, it doesn't work anymore. What you have to talk about is how all of the things that the salesperson is selling, work together synergistically to make more sales. So it's still like any sales person a sales problem in terms of community, it's a communication problem. But it requires an understanding of how digital marketing works. And digital marketing works the way people think. So there's a lot of psychology in this whole it what we introduced to salespeople. So you introduce something I was thinking about? How would you explain the multiple layers of data to a customer saying, I this guy has so many downloads on a podcast, so much conversion? Or he has this many followers on YouTube? How would you go about valuing and explaining that to your customers? Well, a lot of the things that people do to produce content and and distribute, or syndicate the content, a lot of it ends up producing something, which, even if you can measure it, it doesn't equal money. So I get a lot of people relatively speaking, depending on how good I campaign at run, to download something, or click on something that doesn't mean it got paid, doesn't mean I have a customer, it just means I got somebody to do that thing. So so there's so the first step of the problem is, what are the kinds of numbers social media numbers? Are you looking to improve? And a lot of people now talk about the vanity numbers. So certain numbers or vanity numbers in terms of like, look how many friends I have, or how many connections I have. But really, the question is, how many people are retweeting your message now not many people opened it, but to retweet it? Why? Because the whole financial economic advantage of digital marketing is that when you don't have to pay people to help you get the word out, that's viral marketing, but arithmetically, what that is, is reducing the cost of sale, getting to a lot of people with a way more persuasive message when one friend tells another friend about you, and doing so without having to pay for it. brilliant thing. So, you know, so things. So are people even looking at the right metrics? Are they connecting the metrics to what actually eventually pays the money? So is there a view of their ROI? And ultimately, like anything, you're always trying to convert, optimize and scale, get your conversion rates to work better, but at the same time, make more sales? Right? So as a sales pitch, it sounds like you're very thorough and marketing to would say bombastic things on Twitter to get people's attention to retweet it be a good tactic, or more strategic, like if you retweet this so many times, you're in, like a contest? Yeah. See, so the marketer wants to look at it backward. What's the final step, there may be 1000 steps that users could potentially take. But what's the ultimate final step? Why are we even doing this campaign at all? Because eventually, we want somebody to go into the store and buy our product? Or order us online? Or what is that step or series of steps that we make money doing? And now let's take a look at who takes those steps. And generally, if we look at the pattern, say, digital marketing is all about pattern recognition. And how could we look at the pattern of the people who buy from us or buy multiple times from us? who are who are the brand ambassadors, who in turn cause this viral marketing, they earn media that produces more sales than we're getting right now? What is the customer profile? And what is the, you know, their online journey? Now? Now go back and ask me, does it help to just have a random group of people retweet something, only if it's that same group that you're trying to hit on the other end, so you got to let you get to keep going backwards, like a detective going, alright. There are people that are already moving in a certain direction, I just have to stand in front of the right group. So if I just get any old group of people to take an action, that's an amazing thing. And probably if there's a huge number of them, eventually somebody wants to buying your product. But if you really want a tighter connection between ROI and what you're doing, you got to take a look at who's taking that action. It's very easy to miss your target. So on that, so like my show, I'm still new. I'm like Command Center. I, I personally don't know who I'm talking to kind of thing. So how would you go about measuring it to explain to someone? Well, uh, you know, eventually you'll have two very different arguments. So eventually, if you had insights into who you reached, the good news is you could say I'm reaching specifically this kind of person, or these five kinds of people or these 10. However, however, many of each segment that you reach, it'll never be enough for somebody 70 a guy, you know, what if it only was a bigger number, more people in more zip codes and more, but whatever. It's always. So in general, the media salesperson has to learn the arguments that go either way, if you don't have the biggest one, what's the small argument? So the smaller argument is this, our audience is concentrated. I'll tell you the Adweek. edweek literally says, If you only reach five of my readers, if you only reach the number of users that could fit readers that could fit in a cab in New York City, you had a winner, that was a campaign win. Why? Because every single person is a potential decision maker. So normally, you have to go to a million people to get one decision maker, everybody that you're reaching. So you're going to talk about the purity of the audience how dedicated This is, or, you know, you have an engaged audience. So you know, a lot of audiences have a mild interest in so they will and your audience is interested, they take an action, there's always an argument that you could make, but initially, I think it's a good idea to not worry about it so much. And because you probably, you know, I think that the I think you end up attracting people you don't even realize, because you're very interesting to somebody that you wouldn't have thought that would find you interesting. So, you know, so the moment you say, let me try to be right for this one audience, you probably inadvertently missing audiences that would otherwise I've really enjoyed your show. So would you also say in same note, in trying to reach a wider audience, dabble, but not like completely switch in different content, maybe like, if you normally post Monday, Wednesday, Friday, maybe do like a Thursday, bonus show kind of thing. Just random. See how people react kind of thing is specifically a podcast strategy. Now you're saying Yeah, cuz I want to be clear, it would be good to keep the same schedule. It wouldn't hurt to add something new. But I just want to be clear about not changing it from Wednesday to Thursday. But if you added in an occasional one, I think that's good. I also think it's important to remember that people don't, you know, your release schedule and their content consumption schedule, have nothing to do with each other. So basically, 10 years from now, someone's been listening to something, somebody or they listen to with the wrong order, or you know, the, you know, the different order than you thought I'd probably inadvertently turned out to be even better because of that. So, but so I but I would say that you want to have regular stuff, but more than anything else, it's got to be quality stuff. It's got it, you want it, you want to do something that What you don't want is somebody to listen to it, and they didn't like it. And then somebody else goes, Yeah, but you gotta listen to like five of them. Because usually three out of five are good. Like it's, yeah, maybe we'll get one clicker. What may I hope this wasn't the clinker, but maybe this one clinker in there, but basically, you're better off having fewer better things. I see. So would you say then, even if it's once a week, make it just one big banner, and then or instead of trying to pump out multiple? Yeah, although from a production point of view, there's no reason to do that, if you could do one, it could just make it a little bit longer, and then edit it into three. And so, so, so there's really no reason not to have, you know, a certain minimum number. But, but, but if the one time a week is what is all you could do, in terms of how frequently Can you prank pump out great content, then go with that? Okay, now, that's a very interesting insight from your perspective. So as a CEO, I love asking this what is your your key strategy to maintain your employees or team members? I take the opposite approach. You know, the people talk about over managing micromanaging always been amused by that particular expression micromanaging you know, it's like what is it Why is it called micromanaging? Why is it called micromanaging? But, but what I think even though it's talked about nobody likes it, you just say micro nobody goes, Oh, yeah, I think micromanaging is a good thing. Even though sometimes it's probably a good thing. Most people just add a default don't like that. What that what's interesting is most people don't know what it is though, or when it starts. I think micromanaging starts. Every time I asked you to do something in a certain way, in any no matter how gentle I am about that. So if I go Could you get me Some water, put it in a glass, Could you get me on my throat dry? I'm already micromanaging. My problem is I'm thirsty, you figure out how I could not be thirsty, if that's the problem I asked you to solve. But my telling you put it in a glass walk the glass down, although that, you know, and why do I mention make that say that, because when you give somebody a project, and it's your idea, they never have the passion. They never have it. They're much as much of themselves invested in it, that they don't care so much about the outcome. In fact, if it fails, well, you know what you told me to do it that way, you know, as opposed to what I want, which is I want everybody doing everything with a lot of enthusiasm. Does that sometimes mean they're gonna go off in the wrong direction? Yeah. Yeah. Would I have done it that way? No. But it's another thing. The reason I wouldn't have done it that way is because I'm a different person. The reason they're doing certain things their way is because they need those ways actually work for them or usually work for them. So. So it's very important to consider that you're not Mike, that you're micromanaging. Once you get past what the mission is, here's the mission, I need bla bla, bla, bla, here's the problem bla bla bla bla, me walk away, and let us solve it. So the more the other, I could walk away and let the other person own it and figure out how to make the best out of that moment, the better the more excited they're going to be, the more learning they get, and the better the results are. So I apply that to everything we do. I try to get everybody to own the same things that I care about. So it's not like I'm the only one trying to do certain things, and they're trying to do their job. We're all we're all in lockstep. So for that reason, I think that's what I would say they were here, they might say it was also the humor that we bring. But that is that's my secret, and my message to other CEOs. So you would say then, yes, micromanaging, depending on the project is important, but ultimately letting them decide a good path and be invested in the thing. Well, I'm No, I'm saying don't micromanage. So I'm saying you're micromanaging, even when you didn't think you were micromanaging. Okay? Because the moment you went past, just solve this problem. The moment you went into, this is what I want you to do. You're already micromanaging. Okay, interesting. I never thought about that way. Yeah. Yeah. And as you know what, what's funny about it, nobody likes the micromanaging boss. Right? But and they know what a jerk that boss is. Nobody likes the jerk boss. In my life. I've had a lot of jerk boss. One thing, though, that the jerk boss does is they make you do things that you probably need to do and have to do, you just don't feel like doing. If you don't have them in your life, who is going to tell you to do the thing that you have to do you still have to do the thing is that therefore they have to do the thing. So when you're a CEO is interesting is you're your own boss now. Now, you have to be your own jerk. Boy, you can't just be like a nice boss, you have to be the the other kind of pause that that tells people what that tells you what to do. Interesting. So this is actually a new one. I haven't heard from the CEO perspective. How would a, like an upcoming entrepreneur looking to aspire to be a CEO? ratio regime themselves? Like you were explaining? Oh, well, the first thing is, you have to understand that CEO, just sounds like a sort of a fanciful title. Like if we started a company, if I said, How about you, when I just started a company? I'll be the, I don't know, I'll be the CEO, you're the president. Like it, you know, you throw around these terms, without actually realizing that there, they actually define a specific job. So when I started this company, we actually had two founders plus me. And they said, you'll be the CEO, and either, whatever, just the three of us. Yeah. And it turns out that the CEO had very specific things, who was who opens the bank accounts, who, you know, gets the office space and the insurance and, you know, a whole bunch of things, he never even thought were things and all of a sudden you're handling that having to do with the finance or the operation or renting things or equipment or laws that you didn't have to worry about before. So so one of the things about being a CEO is just know that there's a lot of trust. The other thing is CEOs have to do what nobody else is willing to do. That's the problem. When you're on the outside looking in you go that's it. They just do whatever they feel like you know, they do here, watch this, they not only do what nobody else will do, when there's only enough money to pay everybody else. Everybody else gets paid first CEOs get paid last. So, so that's why I don't fault a CEO for making a lot of money when they can because when they can't make money, they don't make any money. So so. So that is that to think about too. Ultimately, here's what a lot of times will do work for other people, you spend your time criticizing, or you know what they should be doing, you know what they should tell the boss, you know what somebody should tell the boss to do. And they're always thinking like, You're a genius. And maybe you are right. But when you're your own CEO, you now have the obligation of having that same conversation with yourself. Like, you know how smart you are with the other person, critiquing them, maybe not realizing all the all the consideration sets that they were going through? Well, now you've got to apply that great ability to give great advice to yourself. And so you have this obligation to come up with a great advice and also follow through with your own advice. That Yeah, that's true. I'm, I'm setting business. And I realized that's the biggest thing that people don't realize about CEOs is that they have a ton of responsibility on their shoulders. And so fellow co workers, like all they do, we just sit in their office, they talk on the phone, buy some stock, and the company pays a bunch of stock options. I'm like, no, they're like, they're trying to figure out how to get the truck that broke down. They have the district manager fix it, while at the same time, maybe a store is on fire kind of thing. Yeah. And yeah, yeah. And, you know, and try to try not to panic, try to keep everything in perspective, one thing that happens to a CEO is that so many negative things will happen is that each and every one of them would come as a horrifying shock to the other employees sometimes. But after a while, the CEO is just over running, we ran out of money. The front door doesn't work. Like, you know, after a while, you become more calloused and much better emotionally at dealing with negatives, because there's certainly you just showered with things that go wrong. is like anything that could go wrong. Oh, absolutely. Things that you didn't think could go wrong all of a sudden go wrong. Are you just sitting there going? God damn, how did that? How did they do it first? Right, right. And I triple checked everything. But I didn't think to do that last fourth thing. Okay, now From now on, I'll add that too. Right? It's painful. It's like make tripping and falling constantly gets to the point, you're just like, Alright, I see a brick coming, but I can't turn. So speaking on negative as a CEO, just as a prospective as a human in general. So we're inundated with social media negativity, and you were talking about Twitter, which is a brilliant platform in and of itself. But there's a lot of negative or mob like mentality, how would you recommend someone deal with it? You mean, as a consumer, or as a marketer, from marketer and consumer? Well, from a consumer point of view, it's still you know, a lot of fun to follow the people that you can follow, the people haven't been canceled, take it off, but whoever you like to follow for the most part, it's, it's, it's good. But what was very important to remember, is, it's a little like radio, when you listen to the radio, and somebody calls into the radio station. That's, that represents, like one to 2% of the population will ever call into a radio station, right? What percentage of all of the Twitter users are actually a actively putting up content? versus liking something or even sharing it, but actually originating it? And, you know, what is the average number of people that any one user reaches? So what you learn is there's relatively speaking, a handful of super users with huge off the charts following and because of all that, it skews you into thinking that this is what America is thinking, or this is what a group of people are thinking, Oh, this is what you know, and any just even a group of people thinking when it's not, it's such a skewed sample, that you know, which is fine. If you're as a consumer, if you're just trying to get a lot of people to see something or you want to see what a lot of people looking at. I think it's great for that. But it as a marketer, you have to be aware that it's like looking at the world through a straw. Because there's a huge group of people it's not reaching or who view it negatively. So you touched on something earlier I was trying to allude to and I'm guessing you kind of picked up on it was kancil culture as the marketer How do you approach showing things without completely just bombarding everyone? Just trial and error? Well, I think two things okay. The first is you don't want to go out of your way to upset people. Well, you know, that it just go into just to pick a fight. Like you know, I don't like The PETA position so I'll just say something anti animal just to get, you know, knowing that they'll probably come back. I mean, that would just so added mean anything about PETA? No, but we just posted a nude photo and probably Exactly. They're good people, and they're doing great work. But the, the, you know, I think it's good to not go anywhere. On the other hand, if some group should find something you did upsetting or offensive, when that wasn't your intention. I think that it's important to stand up for yourself. Because if you don't, if you go, Oh, did I, you know what, even though I look, there was nothing malicious in my heart, it was nothing malicious in my head, you have to really stand on your head and look at this with one eye closed to see it in the offended, you have to go out of your way to be offended by this thing, which I think is not really offensive. So if what I'm being told is always find a way that would offend no one, you'll never find anything, because everybody or somebody will be offended by anything use, you could say good morning, and there'll be 15 people that will be highly offended by that. So um, so it's, I think you need to do two things. One is try not to go out of your way to upset people. But on the far end of that, have a strategy in advance of what you're going to do. So if that strategy is to cave in and go, alright, I'm caving in, then be prepared to you don't have to be like all of a sudden, he went from, you know, mildly indifferent to the most champion of that cause. So, so that's one way but I think that's funny. And the other way you could do it is you could say, you know what, I think we're not offensive and bush back. And, and you will find your audience will respect you more for Yeah, that's that's one thing, as I've noticed how cancer cultures getting so loud, they expect everyone just to apologize, even though it was like completely innocent. And as I as I would listen to different examples, like one person was just stating He's like, Oh, I don't know if you want to consider like LGBTQ this. But it was like a curious statement, and he got annihilated. And he's like, What are you talking about? I was like, I was just saying, out of curiosity, I'm allowed to ask questions now. Is that what you're saying? It's just like, it's the No, I'm sorry, this time, you guys are wrong kind of thing. Yeah. Now, you know, so and and I think the key to it is to be as rational and as calm and as logical. And, you know, let's, you know, and also remind people about the shoe big on the other foot. You know, you can't say this, if I'm not allowed to say that. I am against anybody who can come up with some reason why I can't say something. I want to say if the thing I want to say, isn't trying to be offensive to somebody. So assuming I don't spout hate speech, which I think most people don't spout a speech. A good portion is that two percenters that we don't want to talk about? You know what, and and I bet it's not 2%? I'll bet it's not 2%. I'll bet the numbers like 1000 people that are actually eight speakers who actually do that, but whatever. You know, I think that if you're if you're, if you're going down the road of telling other people what not to say, what how does that make any sense? Then just don't listen. How come they can't say it. Not only do you can't unit not hear it, but somehow you're saying that is my understanding of the planet. Maybe I got this wrong, I was told that nobody would ever put an offensive thing into the air, so that I might hear it. I thought I was supposed to be protected from the accidental hearing of something which I could be offended by. Right. So to me, that's how I look at when somebody says me, you know, any kind of political correctness, but that's the way I am. I'm the kind of guy that if you tell me, I can't do something, whatever it is, you tell me I can't go to the bathroom there. You can't enter this building. You can't park in that spot. Whatever it is, it tells me it just makes me all of a sudden want to do it. So. Yeah, so culture does work on me for that reason. Right. One second. I have two dogs coming in my door. I thought I explained to my parents that But hey, that works. Sorry. So kancil culture is do you think it's become the monster they were trying to defeat? Do I think I first of all, I think it's a monster. I'm not sure it was trying to defeat it though. I did good. So explain that analogy. Okay, so it's like the analogy of you have to become the monster to kill the monster. Do you think they became the monster to kill whatever they were running? Gently trying to fight against, you know, probably underneath all the layers of the onion, somebody, you know, underneath there there is maybe making noise on both sides of both the left and the right politically and, and each one is is causing people to be afraid to voice their opinions. I just What I don't understand is why free speech as become a thing that people think is, you know, maybe we don't need it so much I like why that's not why people don't view that as so important. And why any possible limitation to free speech is the beginning of a row that doesn't stop at the first step. It's the beginning of a row that we already know where it goes. There's every country in the planet, except this country doesn't allow free speech. Right? Yep, for a handful of companies, countries. And so within that, so there's a, I don't know, if you follow the rules in Congress, there's one called the earnings act. So essentially, they're trying to end encryption completely. But if you want, like encryption, like our calls, encrypted, no one can enter kind of thing. They want it all public. But if you want you like the CEO, they all paid the government 100 K, a month, and you can have encryption legally. Do you think that is a type of infringement within our rights? And also, I don't know the rule itself. But there's one that they want, like Google, Facebook, and all of them with their AI. So let's say I'm never going to say it, but like, oh, that beaner over there, they would say, oh, that Mexican person, they would literally go in and alter my texts to this next person. So it's the, it seems people already want to just limit it. But now they're like, Oh, just let Big Data handle it kind of thing. But whose opinion is right, who's wrong kind of thing? Hmm. Well, the fact that everybody is upset, people on one side, don't think enough people are limited. People on the other side, think too many people are limited. So what does that tell us? That tells us that social media has done a very poor job of pleasing their the audience as to the right level, if any level isn't needed? And then what doesn't make any sense to me, is if they are protected with section 230 from a lawsuit, then why did they even attempt to have an editorial? standard at all? Why don't they just let every single thing, whatever they're going to say? People should say? Yes, that's been my thing, as I've been like, reading up the different stuff, it's like, as provocative and rude and offensive, which it's America freedom of speech, let him say, you just it's kind of like online, if you don't like it to describe your life, just walk away kind of thing. Yeah, I mean, so because the alternative is that somebody else decides what everybody could see. Especially in a case like with Twitter, where it's not like there's a representative sampling of every person has an equal voice. There are it's over. It skews toward certain groups and away from other groups. Yes. So actually, I was listening to this on like, a show or something. Twitter's introducing a public forum, kind of judging jury. So you get if let's say your tweet is up for debate like you They say it's offensive. Five random people willing to be in the pool will review your tweet. Do you think that is fair? Or because of the I'll say it the more left leaning bias of Twitter? Would that be a little like rude to its you know what, I would be inclined to think that the five people wouldn't be very impartial. But even if they were even if there was they somehow figured out the world's most impartial way to do this, you know, in the fairest possible way. Nobody would believe it. Nobody would believe it. So it's, it's it's also it's 1984. I actually think the first thing is nobody should even have an opinion about this. unless they've just read read 1984 or read it if they haven't, because it's too similar. What's going on to what George Orwell wrote about all those years ago? That's, that's awesome. I'd never I was gonna try to lean into that. But yeah, it's so eerie. Your phone's listening to your computer's listening to you your frickin probably smart toilets, listening you kind of thing. It's like, big data slash big government always has a pulse on you. And it's one of those you think you're free, but they're letting you be you to intentionally manipulate Yeah, yeah. And and the thing, you know, the the group think of canceled culture, we're all not going to think about this. We're all gonna think about that. And you're not allowed to say this. And he really shouldn't say that. Well, that's described in that book. So to me, too, at least at the beginning. It is. And I think this started back, personally, like around 2006 when smartphones were introduced, because I do martial arts and one of my insurance, but he said, Yeah, he's like, 2006 is when the first iPhone came out. He's a third year wasn't too bad. maybe one or two, like texting and driving. He's like, by 2008, though, he's like, the amount of texting and driving bumpers, he's like, just a little tap, went up. 85% He's like, that means even when we were driving, but he's like, back then, we did not want to listen to our own reality we just rejected into our texting. Ah, that's incredible. There is something that on some level, Who would have guessed on in our amphibian brains that are underneath our monkey brains that are underneath all the other more modern brain somehow when there is a heart we're hardwired to be distracted by texting. Right? I just tapped into this thing. I think it's the constant need for this the primitive constant need for confirmation from your fellow peers? Yeah, whether it's by text or in person kind of thing. Right? Right. It's, you could stand you don't even have to look around. You could be sitting down. You just push one button into the phone, and you're connected to other people. It's it is an amazing thing. It's like crying when you're a kid and seeing somebody run into see what's up. Yeah, it's, it's at first is like, Oh, this terrible then afterwards like, okay, he did it again. Right. Right. So actually, this the there's a with texting Do you think improper doses Do you think direct texting messages someone because that that's bypassing calls? Because calls now have Robo callers and all that? Do you think the new level marketing is direct text message to people? Oh, yeah. I think, Well, I think that people are going to be experimenting with it. Because everybody's zigging whatever it is ageing. So if nobody's using direct mail, actual postal mail, all of a sudden, there's a resurgence in postal mail. A text messaging, which was very big, actually SMS in the 2005 6789. And 10. Is got dwarfed by these other social media plays. But I do believe it will continue, especially because texting allows hyper targeting, you can hyper target people by their phone. So texting them getting up to look at the phone, they're already looking at the phone. So there's no question. It's a great play. What's weird about it is how great it is. It's like the telegram it's like a throwback. It's the telegram on your phone. Short, cryptic, confusing messages. What would have thought that after they invented the phone, texting would never even be a thing, but we see that that may have been that was a better thing in the first place. So yeah, I see it. But I think what it really we're gonna see is a synergism. We're going to see that you're going to get messages from a combination of texting and phone and email, and commercials that you watch and hear on the radio and things that you pass on digital billboards. It's gonna be like that Tom Cruise movie. Blade Runner? Yeah, no, I'm not Blade Runner. I've no I can't I'm blanking on the name of the movie. But he walks past the sign. And they're like, how did you like the blue sweater you got last time? like they'll know everything about you. hypercard demised advertise. Interesting. Yeah, cuz I know for. Have you seen the newest Blade Runner edition? No. Big fan of the original though. It's good. They actually tie in very well the old and give a nod to it. But essentially, the I think there was only intended to be two movies and they said this is the one and they actually killed off the main character so they can't continue kind of thing. Okay, and then but one of them is when he's walking down to get to the target kind of person. Like this thing comes up and it's just like, Hey, I remember this about you. And he's like, I don't know you. It just keeps going and pops out of nowhere. To check it out. It's a good recommendation. It is it's, if you like a deep good story. That one's definitely it. Okay. All right. Awesome, very good. Awesome, I definitely need to get you on in the future. Is there anything you want to plug? I'm gonna cut it there. Though I'm I was great, it was just a fun kind of conversation. I'm glad that you didn't make it really only just about work. And, you know, it was no way I could make it into like a sales pitch kind of thing. I, um, thanks for letting me just pontificate on topics that I really cannot really be a recognized expert in. But it's okay. You know more than me. So therefore you you my perspective is of an expert. Okay, very good. Well, thanks for having me. And let us know when this is ready for release and we'll let others know that I was on your show. Awesome. Thank you. I will i'll i'll message you or do you want me to get Andrea's info on the site? I'll Hendra Alejandro sorry. Yeah. Mike. Get the dyslexia kind of sorry. You could actually copy both of us and Okay. Great. Awesome. Thanks. Thanks a lot. Thank you, Stacey. Well, you too. I'll see you. See you Bye.