Marketing to Different Demographics | Wayne Mullins

   Today on the show we have Wayne Mullins.  We talk about marketing, from billboards on the street to TV marketing, podcast advertising, and so much more.  We also go into the determination and grits involved to start your own company and sustain it.

Waynes company link.
https://www.uglymugmarketing.com/

Transcript

Unknown: 0:01

Welcome to the Josh Bolton show where we dive interesting and inspiring conversations. And now your host, Josh Bolton. Let's get right into it Wayne, tell me about yourself and what you do. So, I am the founder, and I guess you say the CEO of ugly mug marketing. We work with clients kind of all over the country all over the world, helping them achieve the results that they're after. So just what kind of marketing Do You Do Is it like strictly just social media, poster boards, etc. So we do a little bit of everything, we we kind of have three core departments that we work in, one would be well, the other would be social media marketing. And then the final would be traditional marketing. So anything from television, radio, billboards, you name it, anything to help people get results. So it's actually interesting, because I've been thinking about this recently is traditional media, like TV, radio, and billboards, nine are still just as effective. What's interesting about that, Josh, is that depending on the client that we're working with, their audience or their market may still be engaging with those specific channels. So, you know, for your eye wares, we may not watch traditional television, right, we may be streaming our media, if one of our clients is is their demographic is an older generation, possibly, then traditional television may be the place for them to be. And the beauty of that is that, because we have such a broad mix, right now, media choices, the cost on some of these platforms that used to be for example, traditional television spots, were very expensive in the past, but because there's so much competition now, the cost to run ads on television has diminished or dropped significantly. So yeah, I remember a long time ago, people were saying it was anywhere from like, 10,000 to 20,000, just to run an ad for like a 32nd. Is it is still around the same or is it a little less now? Yeah, it's gonna, it's gonna vary based on on marketplace. But for example, here in our small market, if you wanted to run a 32nd spot on, say, the six o'clock local news, you're going to pay about $300 for a 32nd spot. Now, keep in mind that we are in a very small area, the biggest town in our area has 48,000 people. So that's a very small reach compared to somewhere like where you're at maybe out in California, where the reach of a local radio station would be easily hundreds of 1000s of people, you know, if not millions in their quote, unquote, broadcast area. Yeah, know that you're very niche. It's like, it's the mom and pop store in whatever town you just say, run the ads for this area kind of thing. Yep, that's it. So I'm actually curious, because when you mentioned traditional, do you also does do you also run newspaper ads. So occasionally, we do believe it or not, in our local area, the newspaper now only publishes, I think, twice a week, Wednesday, and Sunday, if I'm not mistaken, maybe the other day in there. So again, there's a certain demographic, though, there's certain clientele or certain market that still gets a physical print paper. And ads in the paper, have, again, significantly dropped. Because, you know, the papers have diminished in size, the readership is diminished as well. But that doesn't diminish the fact that the people who still read the paper still pay attention to what's in the paper. Exactly. Yeah. So when you mentioned also social media and web are you talking web as in like a website, but social media is like strictly like Tick Tock or Instagram kind of thing. So we we have three departments if you think I'm kind of is that way. So we have a web department, which is where we're building websites doing web development. And then we have a social media department that's handling more of the digital marketing pieces, whether that's Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn, YouTube, whatever it may be. So from your perspective, as a marketing founder, has what has social media done? That has greatly shifted people's attention in general? That's good or bad trend either way? Yeah. So on, on, you know, cultural societal level. I think in many ways social media has been harmful, not in terms of you know, people's quote, unquote, addiction to social media, things like that. But what is done is it's broadened our horizons in terms of able to make connections so we can now literally connect with people all around the world who we can never connect with. But in the broadening of our ability to connect with people, the depth of those connections has gotten much, much smaller. So if you think about it, and you kind of, you know, talk to your grandparents or talk to your parents, back, in the old days, so to speak, the depth of relationships was much deeper and much stronger. Right? In the quote unquote, older days, you knew all of your neighbors, you knew where they worked, you knew what they did, you had relationships with him. But now because we have broadened out, and we're able to connect with so many people, our bandwidth for relationships has remained the same, but we have dis dispersed it over a wider, broader area. So with with social media for business, you know, what I would say is that it has opened doors, and a lot of ways it is even the playing field, so to speak. So now pretty much every single business and really every person is basically like their own media company, right. So every small business has their own media platform where they can broadcast for virtually free their message to the world, or to everyone out there in their audience. And, you know, you rewind 10 to 15 years ago, that wasn't, that wasn't even a possibility. And so in that short period of time, you know, the last 10 to 15 years, it has completely shifted, where every single business had to rely on media platforms to help get their messages out, whether that was television, radio, print, direct mail, whatever it may be, to where now, literally, with the device they carry around their pocket, they can broadcast that message to the world and connect with people around the world. Yes. One thing I joke about with my, like, fellow co workers, and I do martial arts for my martial artists, is that, like you said, we're still the simple beast, we only have so much for a relationship for our mind to comprehend. But I said it's now it's the kind of like the instant gratification to Tinder. It's like, Oh, I don't like my wife's being annoying. I could just go get a new girl on Tinder kind of thing, that we're all about instant gratification to live streams. And all this. I'm like, it's not bad. I mean, there's some things it's done great. But all in all, it's kind of like, push us to more of a malicious approach to things. Yeah, it's easier, I completely agree it's easier to hide behind an anonymous comment, it's easier to hide, you know, behind those things, where, you know, if you think about it, what people would say, or what people do, say to someone online via comment, they would never say to that same person in person, right, they would never walk up to somebody and say, some of the things that are said on social media. So yeah, I agree. It's, you know, there are pros and cons, though, you know, if for all the downfalls and all the down the bad things that come out of social media, there are the benefits that come from it as well. It's a matter of, I think, for small business owners and for us as individuals to understand kind of the dichotomy between those two. And I always like to remind myself that social media or a smartphone, or whatever the thing is, is a tool to be used, not something to use me right and to consume me. So it's that that constant reminder that the thing in and of itself is not good or bad. It's how it's used that makes it good or bad. Exactly, not. That's the I usually get cut off. Everyone's like, oh, you're crazy. It's like, no, it's a tool. It's no different than like a pen. You can save someone with a pen, but you can also kill someone with a pen kind of thing. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. You know, I think right now, the trend is to paint a lot of these social media platforms as evil and bad and, you know, kind of shine the light on all the bad things that they've done. But the flip side of that is, you know, the platform's in and of themselves aren't necessarily doing bad things. It's the people, quote, unquote, that are doing the bad things on the platforms, you know, they're using the platforms and malicious or not the best intent ways. So yeah, it's a tool. And in the business world, it's a tool that in many ways has been a very positive. I agree, because there are some, some brands that would never have known about unless it was for like an Instagram posts like, Oh, that's cool. Like, I'd never would have bought it, but now I will kind of thing. Yeah, I don't remember the exact the exact research or who it came from. But there was something recently I saw that said, you know, new products, there's approximately 70% of new products discover now are discovered via social media. So when you discover a new product now, about seven out of 10 times you're going to discover that on social media, whereas before you would discover new products through observation. So in other words, you're walking through the mall or you're shopping in a store, and you observe the product there. were, you know, the pandemic, certainly as awaited that speed at which we're discovering new things digitally versus in person or word of mouth, etc. But still the in person word of mouth is like the most powerful way to get a product moving right? It is. And, you know, so we work with, with clients all over the country all over the world. And for the most part, if you ask them, where do your best customers come from? The answer over and over and over again is they come from our customers who tell their friends who tell their family, it's word of mouth. And yet, when you flip that around, you say, okay, that's great. I agree with you. Word of mouth is phenomenal. Let me ask you this. How much of your marketing budget do you actually spend on encouraging and fostering word of mouth from your customers? Okay, and can you go into that a little bit? Yeah. And the response is often crickets, right? They don't know how to answer it, because they're not doing it. So when here to answer the question and go into that a little bit more, we got to go all the way back to the beginning. And that is, how do you define marketing? And so there's a lot of right answers to how to define marketing. But the way we like to define it, just for simplicity sake is marketing is your ability to attract and to keep a customer. So when most people think about marketing, all they think about is the attraction side. All they're thinking about is how do I get new customers in the door? How do I get customers coming in? Right, but they forget about the keeping side? What are they actually doing intentionally? How are they investing their marketing dollars to keeping customers? So when we think about keeping customers, for some people, the product has a long life cycle. In other words, if you're buying a house, for example, that's a long life cycle, you're probably going to be there for years. It's not like it's something you're going to buy every single week. And so we give ourselves as business owners that pass, right, we give ourselves a pass, we think Well, yeah, but people only buy houses once every few years. So what could I possibly do to quote unquote, keep a customer? And the answer is this if you're able to maintain a relationship with that customer who, let's say, bought a house from you, you're then able to build that relationship so that when they're friends, when the family say, Hey, who do you recommend? Or who do you buy your house from, or, you know, have any realtors write, your name comes up. So it's that flipping in our mind of marketing is not just about more and more and more in the door, right? It's about keeping and nurturing and building relationships. It's about turning customers into evangelist for your product, your service, your brand. I agree. 100%, like my story with the product. I bought an E bike online, I did all my research and all that. And I foolishly left a charger and for like six months straight, so it blew out. But I call them like, Hey, I know what's under the one year warranty. Can I just get like, I'll pay for the shipping, whatever. And you're like, Oh, no, no, no, no, like, Oh, no, no, no, it was after the warranty, but they're still like, no, like, we'll send it to you. We appreciate you kind of thing. And that's where I was joking with another guy and like now I'm just like the biggest like preachers like if even if I get into keto kind of thing. Yeah, but and that's a phenomenal example of this. But you know, the way most business owners and I say this, because I speak to them all the time. The way most business owners think about that is they think you know what our warranty clearly says that it's a one year warranty. A B You're the one who left it plugged in for too long, so it's not even our fault. So no, you're gonna have to pay for it. Because in the back of their head, they're thinking we did nothing wrong. We were upholding our side of the policy and that charger or that battery or whatever it was that has to be replaced on maybe the whole bike whatever it was that had to be replaced. cost them some money. What was it I'm just curious what was the charging cable? There's it's like a laptop brick one. Yeah. So the brick itself fried? Yeah, so let's just say that that that cost them in their actual cost 75 bucks. I don't know what it costs. But yeah, let's just call it 75 bucks. And so they're viewing it sounds like as you know what, this is a marketing expense. This is a chance to provide remarkable service to Josh. Because we care because we want him to be happy. I'm not saying they're doing it for the motive of you know, if we do this, then Josh is gonna tell people they're doing it because it's the right thing to do. And they understand that keeping you as a lifetime customer is worth Far, far more than them spending that same $75 trying to go out and find somebody else to buy another bike. Absolutely. It's, I've there's $75 down now I think I've at least got like two people to buy from them and just telling them just to my customer service experience into like done kind of thing. Yeah, and what are their bikes run? Like? What's the range? It's about 20 miles. It also has a like a throttle, like a moped. So if I do that it's gonna, it's gonna be a little less, but yeah, I gotcha. price range, where are they? 600. And like $50. Yeah. So again, that $75 investment that they spent with you, right are spent on you, has now at least maybe two people have spent 600 bucks apiece on their product. And then the peep those people, right, who got the bikes, your friends or family, whoever it was that bought because of your recommendation, they probably had friends, your family asked if they liked their bike, etc. So it's this multiplier effect. And I think you know, so often we get short sighted, when it comes to marketing, when we when we don't really think about that, or lean into that side of the equation. This is actually really interesting. I used to do martial arts, I used to teach it and all that. And my instructor was teaching me marketing. He did the old school like cold call people, I never liked that. But one of them though, he he's talked about this, but he never explained it. So I'm actually appreciating This is he will, because it's martial arts is truly there's nothing other than if you want to buy if you just gotta like religion, you got to hope for the best. But that's the key thing. He said, just like for marketing, it's be everywhere, pay attention and actually care about the customer, once they sign the thing. He's like, you can sign him up. But what if you don't care about them? They're gonna leave immediately. Yeah, know that. That's it. That's, you know, I just started a book about Amazon. It's called working backwards, I think it's the name of the book. It's my two former Amazon employees. And in the introduction, I'm not even done with the introduction yet. But they're talking about how Jeff Bezos, his whole concept behind customer obsession, like from day one, his very first letter to the shareholders of Amazon, I think it was back in 96, if I'm not mistaken, he talked about throughout the entire letter, being obsessed with the customers, you know, and so, I understand Amazon gets a bad rap, and a lot of ways in many ways. But the flip side of that, if you look at their growth, and you look at what's propelled them, it wasn't because they were the most clever advertisers they weren't. It's because they obsessed over the customer, right? They were willing to do things for the customer that others weren't willing to do. And so, you know, it's easy for us to sit back and complain about Amazon, and how, you know, you can't compete with Amazon, and they've got too much money and too much all these things, right. But the flip side of that is, look at what they did to get there, they obsessed over their customers, they wanted to make it as simple and easy as possible for their customers to click a button. And depending on where you live, a box to show up the same day or the next day or two days later. Right? So it's about, like you said, it's about loving your customers and truly understanding their pain points, their desires, you know, whatever it is that they want to accomplish or achieve, or that they're after in life. It really is. It's one of those, as I've talked to multiple people with this show, that is truly the the really refined definition of successes, be persistent, consistent, but also care about your customer. And I think, yeah, I I completely agree, I have a saying that I say often it's that consistency creates miracles. And, you know, I have to remind myself that because it's in the things that I don't want to be consistent in, it's in those little tiny things that we should be doing day after day after day, that we know, those things are good for us. Right? It's we because they're so small, they're because they're so trivial. It's easy not to do them. But I have to constantly remind myself that it is the consistency that creates the miracles. And the same is true in business. The exact same principle is true in business. It's the consistency is constantly doing the little things that make a difference in our customers lives that yield significant returns for us. It really is. And it's it's sad with the nowadays with like, the instant gratification of social media. So why do I need to like if someone tweets me on my Twitter, like, Why do I have to wake up at 3am to reply to them kind of thing? It's like because maybe they're on like the Philippines and their morning is your evening kind of thing. Yeah, no, that that's it and you know, when it relates to kind of social media, we I know we talked about it a bit earlier. But what I would say is that, from my observation, most business owners, most entrepreneurs, most people, they don't actually do social media. What they do is digital media. So by definition social media means There's an interaction, there's a dialogue. It's not a one way communication, right? When we think of social interaction, it's about two people or multiple people engaging each other. And the way most of us approach marketing though, or social media marketing is we show up and we throw up, right? We show up on the platform, we spew out whatever it is we believe our customers or potential customers want to hear. And then we walk away. And then when they do comment, when they do like our posts, when they do share our posts, what are we doing return? Nothing, right. And so we approach it from the wrong mindset from the wrong mentality, we approach it, as it's a platform, that's there for us to just spew our message to the world. In reality, if we think about it, that platform gives us the ability to build connections to build relationships with people we would never otherwise be able to connect or build relationships with. Absolutely, there are some people, you know, because I've been trying to teach myself business and there's the whole trading business and psychology and philosophy now. The one that is the one thing I've realized, as I've been watching different YouTubers, too, for like technical analysis of like trend lines, and all that. Three years later, they're still replying to their comments. I don't just sit there and I'm like, Dude, this guy cares about his customers so much that three years later, he's still replying to people like that. That's true loyalty to his fans. Yeah, absolutely. And, you know what, what I would say, Josh, is that, you know, we, we, when we think about that, when we think about what's required to do that, right? We get short sighted, we want to play the short game, right? It's much easier to say, Okay, I'm gonna spend X dollars on an advertising campaign and hopefully get back some immediate customers. But what the YouTuber you're talking about, and what businesses that are obsessed with their customers do, they're playing the long game. It's not about, you know, I'm gonna respond to this post today, because I posted it today. And then tomorrow, I'm moving on to the next thing. It's about engaging with your customers where they are today. Doesn't matter if you've moved on. It's where they are today. Right? So it goes back to what you were saying about that YouTuber. Commenting on content that's maybe three years old. It's about meeting the customers where they are in the moment. And it the beauty of just podcasting, YouTube in general is yes, it's older. But then there is that maybe five years down the road, you didn't even realize you change someone's perspective. And it just took them like tweeting you like, hey, screenshots like this, this this episode at this time, changed everything. And you're like, I was totally different person back then. I don't even remember it kind of thing. Yeah, no, absolutely. Yeah. So it's spot on, whoever whoever that is doing, then kudos to them, the YouTuber that's doing that? Because I see it is. So actually, I have a question for you. Because you you see all three departments. What is your perspective on podcasts teams, for it's both the advertising for the advertiser, but also for the business brand awareness? What are you seeing from your side? Yeah, so let me let me answer that question from straight from my perspective first, and I'll give a kind of a broader perspective. So, you know, I'm here as a guest on your show today. And so the question becomes, why and how am I a guest on your on your show? And for me, what you'll notice is I'm not, I'm not going to pitch some book, or I'm not going to pitch some product, or I'm not going to pitch a service. I'm going to tell you at the end, you know, when if you say where can people learn about you, I'm gonna give you our web address. And that's it. Because I'm doing this for the long game. This isn't for me about, you know, I want to be on Josh's show, so that we can drop some revenue in the door. It's not about that. It's about getting our message out to the world. It's about helping others where they are today. So again, this for for me, and I think when people approach podcasting the right way, it's not about a, a gift, take relationship, right. It's much more about a give, give, give, as I guess Gary Vee would say, you know, Jab, Jab, Jab, Right Hook. It's the long game. Now from from a business perspective. What's brilliant about podcasting, both directions. So if host your own podcasts when it gives you access, if you do interviews, it gives you access to people that you otherwise may not have access to. It also gives you the ability to leverage your platform based on other people's networks. So in other words, when the show goes live, we will post it on our social media, which will then drive some of our people over to your show, right? So you're able to pick up so from that perspective, it's great. And the other one, which is you know, fairly new, right? relatively new this happening is Google is now indexing, podcast and video down to the exact minute based on the question. So if you ask me a question about, you know, what, what's working well with social media in 2021, Google will index that question. And my answer your question, my answer could show up in Google search, obviously, based on whatever their, their magical algorithm is. But yeah, I don't think we'll ever figure that one out. As soon as we do those things. Yeah. So yeah, it's a podcasting is a great tool. In my opinion, it's a long term game. It's not a short game. In other words, don't don't start a podcast if you need revenue tomorrow. Right? There's there's other things that you could and should be doing to generate more immediate revenue. Absolutely. That's that's the one thing because a lot like my martial arts district, he's all about the incident and like the Now get your customer and get him signed the contract. He's like, so what's the point of the podcast? I'm like, well, it's no different than the 14 years I've been with you. And we're talking, I said, Just consider every lesson we have as a podcast. And he's like, who will be easy, who would be quote down enough to listen to them? Like, they're not dumb. They don't have our perspective. So they want to listen, they want to learn, or we might just be so funny. They're like, owl, just big owl. He says he makes me laugh every time kind of thing. Yeah, no, I agree. I think that what I would encourage people to do so we work with the travel agent. And she books kind of custom international travel. And as you can imagine, 2020 like completely devastated her business. Yeah. But what we encourage her to do last year was she actually started her own podcast. So she is, she's in her upper 60s, I believe. And you think about it, you know, we we typically think older people aren't as tech savvy. But you know, she jumped in, she figured it out. She's now I think, on her 17th or 18th episode. Yeah, she's interviewed some of her connections all around the world, her tribal connections. She's also shared her stories about her travels around the world. So it, what it's done is it's given her another avenue, to connect with people to build relationships with people. And that's not even touching the whole marketing aspect of it, you know, which is getting her message and her name out to the world. So it's great. It really is. And that's the one thing jokey with my instructor, he's like, what's the point is the mic? The point of this whole thing is, first of all, like you mentioned earlier, is to talk to people I would never be able to talk to you and the name of the podcast kind of thing. And He kind of looks at him, like some of these people. They've told me after I turned the recording button off, that they said, Yeah, by the way, what we did was like, what I consider a consultant call, and he's like, that's anywhere from 6000 to$10,000 for an hour, and I'm like, Whoa, well, I would never be able to afford that. Yeah. So it is great. It really is. And it's just but also, like I told one of them. I said, this also shows the audience in the future in even recent within the next two months, that you are a trusted authority and whatever you're talking about, because you're not worried you're just talking kind of thing. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I agree with that. So I want your perspective, because you you see more of as a social media, web and all that. What's your take on kancil? culture? Is it truly something small businesses need to fear? Or is it more just noise kind of thing? That's that's a loaded question, Josh. Sorry. That's good. What I would say is this, that it is something that you need to be aware of it is something that you need to, in some ways, I guess you could say fear. I don't know if that's the right word. But what I would say is this is that, you know, when we live in a world where everything is digital, everything is instantly shareable everything can, quote, unquote, travel around the world, you know, in a matter of seconds, we need to make sure that our core values are always pointing us in the right direction. So you know, we have an ugly mug marketing, we have core values. And then on the other side of this core values, we have team member expectations. And what I like to say is those are kind of like the guardrails on the side of a road that keep us heading in the right direction, that keep us from running off on this side, or they keep us from running off on that side. And, you know, I don't I don't have to worry about, you know, having something go out that that is offensive. I don't have to worry about those things. Because what I know is that if something does go out, for from us or on behalf of one of our customers, that is is quote unquote offensive that runs into the council culture. I will know that, that it was genuinely a mistake, right? There is no malice or ill intent on our part or someone on our team Spark, because I know where we are going. I know our guardrails that are in place. So, yes, I do think you have to be aware of it, I don't think you can be, you know, as brash, maybe as some entrepreneurs, business owners in the past would have been. And again, I was never that way to begin with. But you know, some, he has some of them work. So you do have to be aware of that it's understanding the marketplace. And I think anyone with any wisdom would say that, regardless of if you agree with the marketplace, or not the culture at large or not, we still operate within that write, we're still a part of this culture. If we don't like the culture, we can choose to withdraw, to not participate in the culture, we can choose to move somewhere else, or the culture may be different. But if you're choosing to participate in the culture, in other words, you're choosing to put your business into the culture, your products or services, you must be aware of what's going on within the culture. It's foolish not to be. So that would be my advice. Like, if you're going to participate in the culture, be aware of what's going on, understand the pitfalls, understand the dangers, but also understand the benefits that are there as well. It really is. It's one of those. The reason as to such a loaded question was, I was thinking also, there's a shark in all value. If you do intend to go against the grain kind of thing. Yes, you can probably piss off a lot of people. But you also have some mental real estate now. Because even though it's bad, you're in their head kind of thing. Yeah, there's definitely something to be said for that. You know, one of my favorite quotes as it relates to marketing or advertising, in business, in general really, is, you know, if you want to be successful, just simply look around at what all your competitors are doing, and then do the exact opposite of that thing. You know, so it's a great strategy, because by default, we choose typically to follow the leader. So when we see competitors all jumping over to tik tok, we think we've got to go jump over to tick tock, right. So, you know, this is gonna sound stupid and crazy, but right now everyone's jumping to tick tock, and you know, whatever the latest, the greatest shifts, social media platform is, if you really want to stand out if you really want to generate headlines, move your business back to my space. So yeah, yeah. You know, imagine the headline, you know, night glow, click on my space. Exactly. It's going to get publicity. Everyone's going to talk about it. Because it's the polar opposite of what everyone else is doing. It really is. And that's the I think that's also the part where people don't want to do it, because they don't want to shame they don't want to yelling like, oh, you're an idiot kind of thing. But it's those yells are almost like a reassuring like a confirmation. You're doing the right kind of thing. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. There's a quote, I think it may be by Ilan musk. I'm gonna butcher it. So it's not going to be even right. But basically, if you don't have people criticizing what you're doing, you're not doing much. Yeah. And I think it's, um, the 48 Laws of Power, say, when starting a business, employ your enemy kind of thing. And if you don't have any musical make enemies, then go hire him. Yeah, no, that's it. Absolutely. Because it was one of those things, a buddy of mine back in the day, we were gonna, like, start a whole thing. But I told him, like, I'm not gonna work with you, though. And he's like, why I'm like, because that I know, you and you know me, you know how hard you can push me before I crack kind of thing. And you'll get away with so much shit. And I think that I'll rather hire your sister, which we never get along with. And she'll actually do it to prove me wrong kind of thing. Right? Yeah, there's definitely some wisdom to that. Yeah. And it's just it's kind of like the old adage is where it's like, well, they all just left me right now. Their mind. Hey, don't worry that that happens to me all the time. As soon as I have this great grand idea statement, it disappears. So I'm with you. Okay, cool. Now loading that one. So I want to go into maybe more of the details, the the numbers, the rate of return for your IDs, you don't have to give any to customers. Just what you see. Let's say like, I'm I go to your network and say, hey, I want you to advertise my podcast for this much month. How would you go about it and what are the numbers for it? Yeah, absolutely. So what we what we start with is kind of figuring out the baseline. So where are you currently Right. So, at the at the end of day, let's say that your, your goal for your podcast is to generate a few $1,000 a month in revenue, right advertiser sponsorships, I'm just making this up, right? So the very first thing we would do is we would say, okay, we're going to start with what is the low hanging fruit? So when we work with any client, our fees are fairly expensive. Our so our monthly retainer is fairly expensive, right? And what we know to be true is, the quicker that we can cover our own expenses with the results that we're getting, the longer you're going to stay with us. So in other words, let's just say that, that you come to us and we say, okay, our fee to work with us can be $3,000 a month, the sooner we can generate an additional $3,000 in profit for you, the longer you're gonna stay with us, right, right. If we can generate that additional revenue in one month, and we can show you Hey, within one month, we're already paying for ourselves, you know, it's only gonna get better from there. So we would first start with the low hanging fruit. In other words, we would look and say, okay, Josh, it sounds like you've got a martial arts background. So tell me some of the products that you use related to martial arts. So maybe it's like, I don't know much about martial arts at all. Right? Yeah. So for me, what I do is more forms, but we also do tournaments. So there's weapons, or no, I think I got rid of mine. because technically, in California, they're illegal. But I have, there's GIS, they're about, like the traditional Karate Kid outfit. Yeah. So you get that in a belt that can run anywhere from 150 $200. You get your cool swords, patches, those things are freaking expensive. They're like candy, you get one and you're like, Oh, I want to know what it is no one. Yeah, so so maybe you have a certain like, I'm just making this up again. But let's say that there's a certain type of ghee, or manufacturer or maker of certain ghee that you really like, then I don't, again, it's out of my territory here, right. Or let's say that there's a certain type of weapon, certain types of, you know, tool, equipment, whatever you want to call it that you use. So we would look for those relationships that we could establish. So in other words, we would then reach out and say, Hey, Josh has been doing martial arts now for however long X number of years, right? He's got this great podcast that's going to reach X number of people or currently reaches X number of people every single month, would you be interested in sponsoring, here's the sponsorship packages that is available. So again, we're going to look for the low hanging fruit, that may not be the best example. But we're going to go after things where it makes the most sense to pick up revenue based on who you are, and who you're reaching with your audience. And so that's going to vary based on based on client. I'll give you another example. So we're working. Right now we have a client who makes fishing lures. Okay. So actually, you're in the wrong business. You should be it should be the psyche of his business. But they're sold all over the country all over the world, these fishing lures. And we we started when we start working with them, they're sold in like big box retailer. So Cabela's Bass Pro Shops, all these tackle, warehouse, all these these big places. So when we started working with them, only a tiny, tiny fraction of the revenue came directly from their own website. So we begin immediately working on how do we start generating revenue through your own website, because the margins there are far better, right there, they're able to keep more of the money because there's not a middleman involved. We also then begin working on building an email list from them. So they didn't have an email list. So in other words, people sign up for like a newsletter. So we look for what are the opportunities that we can begin generating revenue quickly for these clients? And that is where we start. So I don't know if that answers their question directly. But we always look for that low hanging fruit first. That was actually what I was thinking, because I had someone on yesterday, and that's exactly what they said to like, email list. Like, it's archaic, by many standards, but it's like it's the best because once people go into email, they realize like, Okay, this is from Wayne kind of thing. I better read it, even if I'm doing weekly kind of thing. Yeah, and what's interesting about emails when you do it correctly, especially if you have a product that's a lower priced product. You will learn over time, for example, with this one client, give numbers but with this fishing lure client, we've only been working with them now for about maybe five or six months or so something like that. But we know now every single time we send an email, we know on average, it generates X dollars to revenue back through their website. And that doesn't even include the revenue that it generates from, you know, the people in Cabela's or shopping on tackle warehouse or wherever else it may be, that just saw an email about this particular phishing war, and then they buy it from there. So what's so interesting about email though, is it there's always this direct correlation if you're tracking it correctly, so you send the email. And then you can see the number of people who click the product. How many people added to the cart? I mean, people checked out all that stuff. So it may be archaic, but it still works. Why don't change the system that works kind of thing? Yeah, that's actually one thing I've been working on. My only small right now, but it's growing. But it's the I have no one to email other than mine, when they tested when I first tried set up MailChimp. And I'm like, I had, I have this thing on my site where you can send me a message prices, like your name and your email kind of thing. But when I sent the test is sent my address, so I'm like, oh, like cancel everything. I love them. But they don't need to know that. Right? Right. Yeah, no, that that is I know, you're talking about inside MailChimp. It does have at the bottom it has the address I've ever set it up down in there. Yeah, that's where it's like, how do I change it? So then for you. So you mentioned something that I've been thinking about, which is the social versus just barfing on the stage and saying, Well, I'm leaving. Do you think the actual interactions, if it's small, like me, or maybe like one other person, just sitting there just replying to the onslaught of messages and emails kind of thing? Because you're building that personal one on one relationship? kind of thing? So you're asking, Is it worth having somebody that does that? Is that that or do it yourself kind of vague? Like you're the one like you promise, like, let's say, you won't, but it's like, anyone who contacts Wayne doesn't matter, within like, 24 hours, when we'll get back to you kind of thing you just, you know, like, 24 hours, he'll get back to you kind of thing. 140 characters or less? Yeah, yeah. So I think that as small business owners, or as leaders, I think you need to have some guidelines around that. So I'll give you two specific examples that come from our expect our team member expectation guide. And that is, we're expected to return phone calls within two business hours. So we're on eight. Yeah, we're on at eight to five central time here. So within two business hours, we were supposed to return a phone call. Another thing just to throw this out there is that we choose to have a live answering service answer our phone 24 seven. In other words, when we're not in the office, you know, between eight five, we have a live answering service answer our phone, we could easily set up an automated you know, press one for this and press two for that. But again, we want to remove every single barrier that people may run into as it relates to doing business with us. And I don't know about you, but for me, Josh, you know, having a press one for this department press two for this person and all that stuff. Like, it's too frustrating. I'm not gonna do that. Whereas if somebody actually answers the phone and says, hey, how can I help you? You know, yeah, they may have to take a message, but it's a real person. And then the other one, sorry, go ahead. Oh, say Right, exactly. It's the human interaction. Yeah. And then flipside of that is then with email. So our our rule around email, so to speak, is that we have to respond to emails within four hours. And that doesn't mean we're going to have the answer. Because sometimes our clients email us with some pretty complex emails, like we need X, Y, or Z, or we have all this that we've got to accomplish. But we do have to respond back and say, Hey, thank you for your email. I got it. I'll work on it. I'll get back with you in two days, three days, whatever the time period. Yes, right. Yes, it's just the confirmation like I do see you just little bit of a complex question. Give me some time kind of thing. It's usually I've even gotten that before. Do you know the company dragon speak naturally? Like or nuance? I think it is. I've heard of it. Yes. So my software acted up. So I called them up. And literally, they're like, Hey, we hear you. But that's not our department kind of thing. So we're going to transfer you and it's the same thing as you. It's just like, we understand, we may not know the answer, but we know so when so we're gonna send you over there kind of thing. Yep. That's exactly it. People, people are very understanding. And I find for the most part, you know, I would say that 90 98% of the people in this world are very understanding, even when things are going wrong, even when they have a problem with a software like you're talking about or website crashes. Most the vast, vast, vast majority of people are understanding what they just want to be heard. They want to know that you care about the problem or their issue as much as they do, right. They want to have that perception that their problem is now your problem. And that makes all the difference in the world. That truly does and it's just how our our mind works from the the simple tribal, being small. It's the Oh, the head leader says this and he if he said Is this we must do? Like goals, picks and berries or something. Yeah, yep, that's it. So then, actually, when I do want to pick your brain on one more thing, what have you been doing specifically during these COVID? lockdown times to pass the time Netflix, Amazon Prime? podcasting? It none of the above? So my answer Josh is my my routine, my daily schedule stayed almost identical the entire time. Again, I go back to the mantra or the saying consistency creates miracles. So my morning routine stayed the exact same during the entire process of COVID. My workday stayed the exact same. During all of COVID. My evening rituals actually remained basically the exact same. Obviously, we weren't going out to restaurants or anything like that. But my routines and my rituals stayed consistent. And I worked very, very hard to make sure that they did stay consistent. Because I'm a firm believer that consistency does overtime, create those miracles force in our lives? So as boring as my answer is, you know, last year looked almost identical to the year before, for me, it looked a lot like this year's looking for me as well. You know, I, it's not that. Maybe I am, I was gonna say, it's not that I'm a boring person, but maybe I am a boring burger. Maybe I'm boring, because I find that fascinating, too. Yeah, it's just that, you know, it's in the small daily disciplines that our lives are altered in our futures are altered. It really is. So then I have one more before we send off, and we finally plugged your website in. What is some tips or tricks to a young aspiring entrepreneur that maybe wants to get into marketing? Yeah, so what I would say is, first that no one what it is that you offer. So that's number one. But number two is listen to the market place, listen to the problem that they are trying to solve. And I think what happens I was certainly very guilty of this. When I started this company, when I started ugly mug marketing, I came with a very specific, quote unquote, marketing product to the world. So I was trained in direct response marketing. And that is where I believe that every small business needed, they needed direct response marketing. And in going out attempting to sell them on this form of marketing, I would spend way more time trying to convince them on why they need to be doing direct response marketing. And they didn't want it, they wanted traditional marketing, they wanted brand building. So instead of listening to what they actually wanted, I was so stubborn, I was trying to convince them of what I believe they need it in wisdom comes in when you're able to provide for them what they want. But then also give them what you truly believe they need. So in other words, if I truly believe that they needed direct response marketing, I should figure out a way to give them what they're asking for, give them what they want, but also include a little bit of what I believe they need so that I can educate them not based on what I say, but on the results of the marketing gets or the marketing delivers to them. So that would be one huge, overlying thing. The other one would be it's in the same exact kind of vein there is that when we when we think about it, there's all the talk right now about, you know, product market fit. In other words, does your product or does your service, fit the market fit the needs of the market? And I think that's very deceptive. Because for me, my product was direct response marketing, right? So that was the service that I was providing. And it didn't fit the marketplace, there wasn't a great fit for the marketplace. And instead, if I'd shifted my mentality to say, Okay, what is the actual problem that they are trying to solve? And if I'd become so obsessed with the problem, that those entrepreneurs, the business owners we're facing, and then work backwards to figure out what product best fits that or what service best fits, that fits that problem, right? And so you have to be willing, and I'll tie this into a story. So when I first started, I kept trying and trying to convince people to do direct response marketing. No one wanted to do it. And finally, to be honest, we ran out of money, like we were running up credit card debt, running up a line of credit debt. We had sold our house, we'd sold two new vehicles, we total boat, we sold our land, we were selling a lot of stuff, but I wasn't selling any marketing. And you know, it got to the point where desperate We needed money. And over the course of a few years of me trying to sell this, and I had some clients along the way. So when like it was nobody, but I constantly had people asking me, can you help with our website? Or can you build a website for us? And my answer was always No, because I had no clue how to do a website. And so, out of desperation, I told myself, I said, Okay, the next time someone says, Can you help with a website, aka their problem that they're telling me they have? I'm going to say yes. And then I'm going to figure out how to make it happen. And sure enough, a week later, two weeks later, whatever it was, it wasn't long. Someone says, and one of the meetings, no, I don't want your marketing. But can you help with a website? I said, Absolutely, we can. And so here we are, fast forward, probably nine years later. And we've now built over 700 Custom websites for people all over the world. And that is the importance of listening to the problem. Not trying to force your product, your service into the problem that they have listening to the problem that they actually have, and the brilliance of just listening to the problem and actually working on it. Then once they're in and they see the results you give them then they're like, Okay, well, so what's this direct marketing thing? You're talking about? That that's absolutely right. That's absolutely right. But here's what's interesting, Josh. Yeah, when you say it, it's true. And it's very wise. And it's very, it's right, it's the right thing. But when we're in those situations, like when we're trying to self diagnose, it's very difficult for us to do that. Right? It's easy to look out and diagnose, it's easy to look out and say, Well, here's the 13 things that business should be working on, or this person should be doing. But we can't accurately self diagnose for ourselves. And that is the importance and that is the role of having, whether you call it a coach or consultant, a mentor, somebody else on the outside who can help you see the things you can't see that and that's the biggest thing I've noticed in general is it doesn't matter who you are. Unless you even I think even the Dalai Lama at a certain point needed a consultant like or a shaman to talk to you kind of thing. It's just we all we're social creatures we need not a better we need confirmation in my in my screwed up. Yes, you are. But you can fix it by X, Y and Z and say, Oh, thank you. I'll go do that now. Yeah, that's it. So, Wayne, I love this. I definitely want to get you on in the future. So I would have I could have easily gone three hours with you. That's great. I've enjoyed our talk. Josh is wonderful. I'm so for you. It's the ugly mug marketing, calm. ugly mug marketing, calm. That is it. Wonderful, Wayne. I appreciate you coming on. Stay safe and stay well. Thanks so much, Josh. enjoyed our conversation. Bye